33: Am I Depressed… or Am I Grieving?

Episode 33: Am I Depressed… or Am I Grieving?

In this episode, Jamal and David take on a question many widowers wrestle with quietly: Am I depressed… or am I grieving? It’s a question that usually shows up late at night, in the quiet moments when the distractions fade and the weight of loss feels hardest to understand.

Together, they unpack what grief often looks like in men — exhaustion, irritability, numbness, brain fog, and the pressure to keep functioning even when something inside feels off. They also explore the important differences between grief and depression, how the two can overlap, and why asking for help isn’t a sign that grief “failed.” It’s a sign you’re paying attention. This episode is an honest conversation about emotional limits, faith, strength, and why you’re not broken for feeling the way you do.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Thank you for your support!

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones

Executive Directors: Marlon Jackson & Ted Winners (Like A Gazelle Productions)
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

How you doing? This is Jamal Jones. And I'm David McLean. We welcome you back to Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Um hey Dave, there's a question that most widowers um never really ask out loud.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Yeah, yeah, it shows up late at night, doesn't it? Typically, when when things finally kind of get quiet, the day is done, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Yeah, it's it's quiet. You're in your bed, maybe your the house is silent, TV's on mute, maybe low volume games playing in the background, and you're sitting there, mind spinning on everything else you've gone you've had to deal with to the day, and you're asking yourself, Am I depressed or am I grieving?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

You have to take stock, right? It's it's and because you're doing that, it doesn't mean that you're weak.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Right. Yeah, it's it's it's definitely not a thing of of of if you're weak. It's it's more about you know, I think about it, the fact that you're even asking that question, it means that you're dialing into yourself and you're paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah, like yeah, so I I think today that's why we want to really address this idea of just talking about what grief actually looks like in men.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, and and then you know when it's what it looks like, and when it's time to start pushing to stop trying to just push in through that, like stop ignoring it, and actually listen to what your body's telling you, what your mind is telling you, what your thoughts are saying, right? Because you can ignore those for a long time and find yourself in an unhealthy space. So I think this this is an episode where I think we're really gonna ground ourselves in that. Um, so let's let's talk about like some of the themes, like some of the things that you and I've talked about, yeah, as we both were going through, as you were going through your your phases, as as I've been, you know, had to even continuing right my evolution, kind of beyond loss. You know, so let's let's talk about those that first theme.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, I mean, and we in our what we had just said is really this idea of we're we're all starting to ask ourselves this, especially as the days go by, the years go by, depending on where folk are with their loss as as widowers. This is asking aloud because your mind's just racing about everything else. And as we said, that question really shows up in the times that uh are unexpected when there is some amount of silence. And really, guys, we we we have to focus on this as a simple fact. This is not a sign of weakness. This is you digging into this sense of who am I, what solutions do I need to put in place, or look outside of myself. And we'll go through this as we kind of go through some more of these themes. I think, Jamal, for sure, you know, in this idea of as you said, it is this paying attention to yourself and to what's happening in your household. So I think Jamal, why don't we kind of start to talk a little bit about how grief commonly looks like, what it commonly looks like in men? Because as we talked about in other episodes, and also with people such as Whitney Linton Allen, the grief coach, uh, also Jocelyn Barrera is putting a label on what this is in past episodes. So where where do you kind of see that coming up, this theme of what it commonly looks like?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things, right? I think you know, being able to put a label on it and describe what it is and what it looks like are I think are important. And oftentimes, you know, I've gone to counseling and you know, even in conversations with you know my own wife, sometimes we talk about like let's let's label this thing we're feeling, let's label this emotion we're we're experiencing. And I think for men, I think the labeling is important because I think it allows you to say not just what is the label on it, but what is it doing to you, right? And I think when you you know the the what is it doing to you, these it it's it's symptoms, right? It's like if you have a cold, cough, sore throat, runny nose, like you don't you don't just have a runny nose, you don't just have a cough, you don't just have a sore throat, you have a cold, right? And I think it's the same way with grief, like it's gonna be the first thing. Yes, obviously, the obvious thing is I'm gonna be sad. I'm sad because I lost, I'm sad because I lost something, somebody, right? But I think it feels different and it presents different. So, I mean, one example is exhaustion, right? I mean, sadness, I think, is the surface level, right? That's that's gonna be the emotion, but what it physically will do to you, it's gonna make you feel exhausted in many cases, right? For no reason at all. You may have gotten a bunch of sleep, but you wake up, you start the day off, and by the time you get through that first cup of coffee, right? You're still like, I need another one. I can't get it. Let me go back to bed. Let me go back to bed. These protein drinks ain't working. Like, like you, you, you, it that's one. I mean, I remember feeling like just exhausted, constantly, just tired, like I didn't have enough energy. And and and and it, these are these are things like you don't realize. Men sometimes we think we can power through everything. You can't power through grief, right? You you just can't power through it.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah, yeah. Acknowledge it. It's so funny you say that about that exhaustion piece too. And then I think also given our advanced age. Yes, yeah. You know, we we we also start to think about we're working on so much, doing so much that we think, okay, am I slipping my memory in different ways? Is that a factor of age or how busy I am? Wait, this is also could be this depressive state, this state of grieving that I am in as well. This sense of brain fog that we get, which kind of is attributed to age at a certain point, but also layer on how your body is a is dealing with with grief. It it takes its toll on your body, you know, in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, I mean, you are, I mean, besides the fact that you've taken on so much, right? You are taking on so much in this next next phase of grief, particularly for widowers, particularly for somebody who has lost a partner or have children, or like all the things that you used to split life with, right? Like now you've you're trying to remember everything. But yeah, there's a part of it where like you're you are distracted by the grieving process. You are distracted by a bunch of things you did not have to think about before. So whether we call it brain fog, whether we call it feeling overwhelmed or whatever, like there are new things that it and it's real, like the forgetfulness may feel like a negative thing. It's reality. Like you are you're consumed with a whole bunch of new thoughts. We could call it brain fog. I used to you know think it was brain frog, and sometimes I just call it frozen because I could be sitting here thinking about everything and it not being able to move as a result of it, and that kind of gets into the nut the next part, which is like the numbness part.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah, yeah. Just just that sense of pain that it's it keeps you in one place, it's it it can be overwhelming or it can leave you in neutral for sure, and yeah, that that numbness, and I think also that numbness that maybe is a recurrence, Jamal, from earlier when you lose somebody. Because can you remember when you lost Janice, your late wife, when you how that felt how just everything was just a fog at that time, you just couldn't move in a place, and so your body just didn't have specific feeling but this cloud of numbness.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah, I think you know, I think some of it I always think about, like, you know, people talk about, you know, you know, when your body, you know, when you go to concussion or you go into a coma. In a way, they say that that's actually your brain's way of protecting your body from the trauma. Right? Let's say your brain is like you know, trying to slow you down, trying to let you forget this thing that you just went through. And I think the numbness a little bit kind of presents itself almost the same way, where your body and your brain are trying to say, This hurts, right? It doesn't necessarily have a it's not a physical pain, but this hurts your heart in a certain way. And as a result, we need like you're you intentionally or unintentionally are trying to numb, right? Some people numb automatically and they just focus in on other things and try not to think about it and keep it off their mind. Some people that you know turn to alcohol and you know, through other things to try to numb and can get this thing out of your head, but the numbness is the numbness component is real because you do have to you you do want to remove the pain, right? And it does hurt. And the it's it, you know, not to say there's a wrong, there's not wrong kind of going through it. Again, it's a cold. It's not wrong. You can't feel bad for having a runny nose. You can't be be mad because you you got a runny nose or your cough. Like these are all just kind of components of the grief, components of you know, the byproduct of that sadness. So, I mean that that's something. And then obviously, the one, right? You know, we try our best, you know, to stay composed and not snap at people, but irritability is real. Yeah, man. Right? The the that component of it, and you know, especially when you have kids, you know, and they're dealing with their own grief, and then you you they get some elements and there's days where it's feel normal, and the kids are like, daddy, daddy, daddy, and you're ready to snap or you're at work, and you know, somebody's wanting you to do something you like that irritable, you gotta be able to recognize that.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah, and I think also the irritability in the sense of, as you said, I mean there's so many things, especially as a single parent, that you've become that it's you're doing the routine. You're getting people where they need to be, folk getting fed, folk getting to school or their activities, and then something comes up where they're sick, or there's some other uh related to work you need to do, or forms you need to fill out, or some bills that weren't paid as related to activities they were doing or you were doing, and you instantly wanna you become irritable. It's because that's that reminder of man, it's all on me, isn't it? Uh-huh and you just become that in that irritable state, and it's hard to not feel that way at times. I think we're allowed to, but also understand then that routine is still gonna be there. You're still gonna have to get back to making sure everyone is in their place and have what they need, and you perform well and you're present at work and in your relationship. If you know, if you have moved on and have uh moved forward in in a relationship or what have you.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, I mean that's how it is. And it's I mean, you know, you know, I you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, you do you say this about men or this is about women. Like men, like the reality is, man, like men don't grieve the same way. We don't experience and show it the same way, right? Like I've had people, and even I remember going through my own grief process, and you know, whether it was Janice or even other people, and like, oh, you know, I'm like sitting myself, beating myself, like, man, I didn't really cry. I haven't really cried, I haven't really done this exhaustive, you know, deep crying that you know is the stereotypical expectation of grief, right? The TV grief sometimes that you call it, right? Yeah.

unknown 12:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

And and like, but and that's part of it is like part of it is society has said, hey, like you've got to present this machismo, you know, this aura, or you've got to hold it together for the family. That was something that like you've got to hold it together for the kids. You subconsciously place it on yourself, and as a result, we don't experience and show it the same way. And and it and we can you know that in one way I think that hurts us, right? Because people think we're okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

You know.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah. Are you saying kind of that traditional way men don't fit necessarily into this category of showing grief as as visible sadness? Is it that's kind of what yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

That's yeah, I mean, I we we can, you know, we'll we'll tough it up. We'll tough it out. Right? You know, I mean, I don't want to say man up because I hate when people say that, but we man up, right? Like we man up, we put the world on our shoulders and we we carry the grief as if it's just another thing and it's not another thing, right? So many of us aren't just walking around crying, we're not just walking around, we're like, oh, let's go, you know, we'll we'll hide it in other ways, right? Like we we'll mask it, right? Yeah. You know, that's what they go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

No, I'm just I just the simple fact, you're right. I mean, we we get caught up in okay, we've always been defined men traditionally by the work that we do. So go deeper into that. Appear more busy, stay kind of productive. But what does that lead to? That can generate more pain in that sense. I just met somebody recently, and they had just pass they had a a sister pass away suddenly. Nine months later, that mother to them both died. And we had just met one another, this this one gentleman, and he knew what you and I did, Jamal, as far as the podcast and talking about grief and loss. And so he wanted to talk about it a little bit. And so as we're talking about it, he just and I was talking about kind of what you and I had gone through and what we talk about and the steps that we take, and taking the steps, and that grief is not linear in any way, it happens all these different times. And he kind of just went right into man, I just stay busy, I just keep I just do more work and what have you. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

That's it right there. You're not taking like you it it's it's good to be busy, it's good to find things to keep you busy, but when you keep yourself felt so busy that you don't allow yourself to process what you're feeling or or what you're thinking or why you're reacting the way you are, right? That that therein lies the problem, right? Therein lies the issue of not allowing yourself to actually acknowledge and feel what's going on, not not acknowledging and allowing yourself to to be embrace the the symptoms, right? Because you have to embrace the symptoms in order to get through them, and I think that's that's critical. I mean, I think about my, you know, the you know, it's it it's even being able to be in tune with your emotions can be simple. Like the other day, I'm literally in the car with my wife and my daughters, and you know, I was trying to do something, you know, I can't remember, I was trying to do something on the on my phone and looking for some just some settings or buy something or whatever it was on this website, and I started getting frustrated. And next thing you know, I'm like upset, I'm annoyed, and my daughters ask me, like, did you do it yet? I'm like, no, I didn't do it yet. I'm still trying to do it. This website sucks. And I'm like, and I'm spinning, right? And I'm spinning in it, and I'm frustrated because I can't figure this out. And I'm being short with my daughter. My wife comes into the car, she gets in, you know, she cracks a joke, says something to me, and I'm like, I'm not talking to anybody. And she's just like, What did I do? In that moment, I had to pause, and I was just like, I'm just like, I'm just not talking. So she's talking, they're talking to each other, and my wife looks at me, she's like, Are you are you really not talking to me? And I said, No, I said, I'm talking to you, but I was really annoyed by the website and not being able to do this. And frustrating part was for me because usually I'm able to do this, usually I'm able to fit do this, figure this type of stuff out, and I wasn't, so like when you made this comment, it just kind of was another thing, it was a trigger, and I'm sorry. And it was like being able to like pause and like recognize and just dial in. Something as simple as that is something that like you have to be able to do. You have to recognize, like, why are you feeling this way? It's not because of you're not irritable, you're not trying to like be distracted with all these other things. You can't, you know, like you're trying to find ways, and you have to you're trying to find ways to cope. You have to let yourself understand what you're trying to cope with.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

So you're saying your current this current situation you're telling me about is an echo from your past, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

It's just an echo. It's it's it's you get into these behaviors where even the most simple thing you try to work through it. The simple thing you try to dismiss it as if it's not something real, right? Like you try to dismiss it like, well, this isn't a feeling, this isn't frustrating, I can figure this out, I'm a man, I'll deal with it. But you have to also, like, even in the most simple points, what I'm saying is like, even in the most simple instances, as you're going through the grief process, you have to be willing to kind of pause and be okay feeling what you're feeling, and then check in with yourself to understand why am I feeling this way? Like, why am I frustrated? Why did I just snap at this person? Why did I why am I trying to like stay so focused in my work and work all these hours that I don't give myself like you have to be aware of what you're doing enough, and I think we and I and I and I say that to say it's like this is actually it was actually a coping mechanism, like learning to do that in grief has allowed me to be process that and do it better now. Because it's still you know, these it's not like the struggles stop, right? These things still continue, right? It's just you have to start like in this traumatic experience of losing somebody. The best thing you could do is take time to dial into yourself and what you're feeling, because then that allows you to recognize even the most simple feelings down the line, right? Um, and I think the the idea of like functioning, right, is not healing, right? Just because you're functioning, just because you're working, just because you can ignore something that just happened, it doesn't mean you're like good, right? Like it it doesn't mean that you're good just because oh, I you know, chopped down this tree today, so I'm clearly healthy. No, you're not. You chopped down a tree, and you might have chopped down that tree and swung that axe recklessly. But no, it doesn't mean you're better, right? That I think that's the the kind of point that I'm trying to get.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, just just this idea of on the surface, if if that you're getting tasks done, people think you're okay. But truly you're not addressing the deep sense of where this irritability is coming from, this non-traditional way of showing grief coming to the surface. That healing is not necessarily happening just because you're able to check off some boxes of things that you're that you're doing. So, yeah, and I think what truly is happening and what we're talking about is that these widowers may look fine on the outside, but quietly we're unraveling. You know, and that that's really what's what what is happening. So let's look at this other theme, this this idea of I think as we started at the top of this, is that grief and depression, they're they're really not the same, but they can coexist. That as you and I know going through our loss and those listening to us, that man, it just comes in unplanned waves at different times, different moments, reflection of whether we talked in the past and past episodes about music that we could not listen to to a great extent. And when we heard it, it it just we we just started to unravel there and go to Tailsman. I can remember listening to like our wedding song, um, LTD. There was an LTD song, the love ballad. Oh man, Jeffrey Osborne Smooth. But it hit me in a different way when I heard it soon after my late wife passed away. I had to go to another song, man. I couldn't listen to that song, and then there was another kind of bookend song called Optimistic by Sounds of Blackness, Real Upbeat, Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, you know, nice beat to it. It was rough to listen to, man. And that those are those kinds of waves that can c can come in that form. Uh what what about you? D can you can you think of some other as it we know the differentiation between grief and depression not being the same but coexisting?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, yeah. I mean I think the the The the waves is absolutely right. You know, and I think that the difference with, you know, when you have the waves, I think the the grief it will. It's gonna ebb and flow. There's gonna be the song that reminds you. There's gonna be the restaurant. There's gonna be something your ch your kids will say or bring up, right? It's a family member, you you can be perfectly fine, and a family member calls you and asks, How you doing, and now you're not perfectly fine, right? Because you just reminded me that something should be wrong and I should feel some kind of way, right? But I think the the the part of it for me that you know sometimes was the reminder, sometimes was the thing that sent me into a place was actually the kids, right? And it's strange because you see them every day. But if if I saw them and they looked melancholy or they looked a little bit down, you know, and I'd ask them how they're doing, what's the matter? I'm like, no, I don't know. And I'm like, oh man, I know, right? And I'm now I'm trying to force it, right? Right, and and and sometimes they may not know, they're still processing it themselves, or maybe it was something else, maybe it's legitimately something else. And I think sometimes it was for me worrying about everybody else and worrying, are they really okay? That was the thing that could s me into the spiral. Um, and then and then and it was. I think it's I don't really feel like I truly experienced a depression per se, but I definitely felt like you know, I could like I understood, you know, because particularly because I had one one of my children were dying with, they were diagnosed with depression after she passed, right? So I was very aware of like the symptoms and you know the you know what I should look for in them, like then I started paying attention to myself as well. But I think that's the thing. I think what what I learned about was that depression feels so much more constant, right? The the sadness feels so much more constant, and you know, versus the waves, right? So when you have the waves, I mean that might be healthy to have the waves, right? To be able to kind of ride the wave and you're up and you're down and go like there's nothing wrong with that, I think, because to your point, like it's the memories that are gonna trigger it, it's the conversations, it's the smells, it's it's the sounds, like all types of things are gonna trigger that. And you know, that's okay. It's paying attention to yourself and tuning in to when you are constantly down and constantly feeling sad, and you know, some of the the things we mentioned before, the exhaustion, the forgetfulness, or you know, those things seem more constant, that's when this is beyond grief. Right? And then that's when it's kind of time to raise the flag and say, okay, I've gotta I've gotta reach out to another resource or reach out to some some other tools.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah, yeah, when you feel that flattening, you know, that and and and it doesn't feel like you can rise up from that, that you're just stuck completely. Yeah, and and I think that's where grief can differ in the sense of grief also tends to allow more moments of connection. That that that it's it's a shared sense that you can then speak to others as you're going through those moments of grief. Whereas a depression starts to distance you more from that event and connection maybe to yourself, and realizing that they're going to be these waves. You and I talk a lot about living in the peaks looking up at the valley. Or I should say it the opposite way. In the valley looking up at the peaks, is what I was trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Or the sense of waves of you're gonna ride it, here comes another one. If you're a surfer or whatever the case may be, another wave is going to come in, is you can see it as conquering you, or you conquering it. And I think that's the way you can you can also see that.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's possible, right? I mean, a lot of people will will experience both, right? The the grief and the depression. And it's normal, right? There's nobody who's gonna go through any loss, anything like this without needing and going, you know, without kind of the some of the stereotypical outcomes, right? Some of the stereotypical outcomes that people feel are this like deep grief, this deep sadness, this depression, like those are gonna happen. It's it's a matter of how you manage yourself in and out of these things, right? And I think that's the important part is to just you know making sure you understand that as you enter grief, as you manage grief, as you if you experience depression or different components of it, or all of these different symptoms that can maybe intermingled. The reality is like it doesn't like asking for help and going to get help, it does not like this does not mean that you fail. Right? Like there is no winning or failing at grief. Like it's a process, right? It's a process that unfortunately we are all gonna go through. And I think that's the part where you just have to like means that you you recognize that something has changed, and it's time to go and get help in order to manage to win.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Through that shift that that that that has happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that takes us into the into the other theme around like what is the emotional texture of like hurt versus hollowness, right? Like, grief hurts. Right? It's it's a process that is painful, right? It hurts, it stings, it aches, it can be overwhelming. It's you know, we talked about the roller coaster. It's like I know me when I get on a roller coaster, my kids, let's go on a roller coaster. I get on that roller coaster. I I don't like roller coasters because my stomach hurts at some point. Right. But you know, grief is the roller coaster. We talked about the up and down the waves, it is the roller coaster, and and it and and it can sometimes and through that process, right, it it's not all pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where where whereas the depression, that's where it hollows the body out. It it just flattens all sense of emotion or or any real motivation, you know. You I I I can you can have depressed moments and then for those who are not necessarily diagnosed clinically depressed, and then and to know that you can move beyond that. But for the most part, depression, whether diagnosed or depress depressed moments, i it it really just carves out and digs into who your existence and what your existence is, and then there's just just not a lot enough left. Everything is dulled in the sense of those emotions and wanting to really move on and move forward in in any way.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, and I I I think about myself and you know, kind of going through the the the grief and in those depression, those depressing moments, right? Where I looked at myself often and and kind of went through these moments of like, well, this is just what I have to do. Right? This is this is just life, right? Like this is just gonna be how it is. That's not you know, it it actually is is not that those moments aren't necessarily healthy, right? That is not necessarily the right way to look at it. It is how you are and what you're dealing with and what you're feeling at this moment, it is not what life is just supposed to be, right? And I think that's something that like a lot of men, we can get into the habit of misrepresenting and misinterpreting that hollowness that you just spoke of, and just kind of ignoring we we can represent that. Well, this is just the way I'm supposed to be right now. This is just the way I'm supposed to feel right now. This is the way life is gonna just be for the foreseeable future or for however long. And that that's something that we can't let kind of take hold of us, right? We have to acknowledge the feelings, the sadness, this moment that we're in right now is this moment that we're in right now. As we talk about it all the time, you have to get back up. There is another side of this, right? Yeah, that is beyond this hurt, that is beyond this, you know, acknowledge the hurt, escape the hollowness, I think is the right way to think about it. Right? If you acknowledge the hurt and deal with the hurt, manage the hurt, accept the hurt, and everything that comes with it, I think that's fine. But if you allow the hollowness to kind of take over you, then that's the part where you end up in a you know in the least ideal set situation, particularly for yourself, your family, your friends, everybody, you know, everybody else in your life.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah, yes. You're saying really this this pain that it it takes a certain role and it changes the shape of your existence. And it and if you don't address it, it's going to consume you, and therefore it deserves attention as early on as you possibly can. Whether you are reaching out to others on that, or if you do that self-assessment and say, ooh, yeah, I can't continue this way because things are falling apart around me. So, you know, you definitely can't do that. So the kind of the next theme we we should kind of address is this idea of strength, faith, and and really the honest limits of of all of this. And I think often you can you can arrive in a situation where the the the faith language can unintentionally create pressure for you. So it's also give me yeah, give me an example. Yeah, just living living in that sense of if there are certain, I think, constructs in faith where you okay, well, I'm I must go through these challenges. This is a job moment. Um there has to be this incredible loss, and and and I have to be stuck here for this amount of time, and then I'm deserving of what's kind of coming next for you. Yes, it and and well, well, that's just how it is. Just like we just said, well, it's just how I am in life right now. It's true, yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

No, as if, as if, yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying. It's like some grand wizard, some grand power has said that you have to go through this in order to pass to this next level, right? And and I think a lot of people do that, you know, in order to as a coping mechanism, as is justification of their own struggle, of their right. Like, you know, I I mean one of the things I always said was, you know, that going through the battle with Janice, let me realize kind of the true capacity of our vows, right? The true the true extent of the effort that I needed to make for my marriage. And there was a part of me that's like just when I had this conversation recently the other day, you know, and it was in the context of like, you know, how do you justify you know, is it good to say that this is it the right thing to say that you know this person died for this reason, so that they can go be with the angels, so they can sit at the like there's all these things of like you know that we try to validate struggle, right? We vo we we try to validate struggle, and and and I think this is one example of like the faith piece where it's like using that language of like, oh this will make me a better person, or this is I'm now able to do that. And I think there's a yeah, there is a point where it could be it it can create unnecessary pressure. Um right, because then it what it does is it says, Well, am I doing it the right way? And if I don't do this the right way, then maybe I won't achieve this this goal that's you know that you put on yourself. And I think that that to me is like, yeah, it's it it definitely can have unintentional consequences.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Um Yeah, and and and I'm not gonna dwell too much on this the this sense of faith and but but there are these limits that are formed for sure. And and I just have this sense that you as you said, you have to give yourself a certain amount of of grace, for sure. And then and then work through the getting to uh a sense of routine that then creates a better, brighter future. Because it's really hard to see that when you are dealing with the grief and depression coexisting at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, it's too soon to it's too soon to put that like you can I think afterwards you can if you if depending on your faith system and how you believe faith is a part of your journey, um, and and and faith is a fuel of strength and things of that sort. Yeah, I feel like it yeah, at some point, yes, you do can you can look back and and reflect on how you know faith has been a part of your your process to kind of work through it. But I think in the moment allowing faith to be too much of this this this driver, right? Yeah, then I think then I think you because you have to allow yourself to be able to settle within yourself as to what's going on. And like, yes, you need tools and faith and family and love and all of these different things in order to help you through that. Um, but there's a point where like if you if you if you put too much on the outcome, that's right, right, then you I think you you potentially risk you know kind of being too hard on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, and and and I'll I'll I'll move on, but I I do want to add to that, which is in in faith, I think when we think of in context, these are stories of people, allegories they've gone through, hey, they too are gonna have their moment where they are tested. Or that it seems insurmountable because all of these the sense of loss has happened at this time. So it is a sense of and examples of these are written examples, whatever your sense of faith coming into this, these people have gone through it as well. You are millennium of stories of people getting through incredible loss that they had never anticipated. So, you know, so I think it gives context for sure, it may set some uh expectations for some people, right? But it also helps in in the sense of limits of within humanity, okay, I'm going to move on as the examples I have learned throughout my life going to whatever church service I did, or what whatever your kind of sense of faith, and how you kind of acknowledge that, and you have your traditions throughout the year of going to church and listening and then it and and and incorporating that into your life. That's all I'm trying to say is as it relates to faith for those listening to us, is that it does give the sense of examples that came before you, this too shall pass.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Right. Right. Yeah, and then I think the other point of like is is is what does strength look like? Right? Like, what does strength look like in you know, in in the context of kind of working your through way through this? Like, you know, like some people have this idea that oh, if I'm strong, that means I have to portray that this isn't affecting me. And I think that's uh that's definitely not you know not uh the you know, I I think while seeing being strong, I don't think that's the the way the stoicism, right, is not the way of of of kind of processing or or or manufacturing or manifesting strength. Being strong is, you know, I think in this moment is acknowledging the moment. Acknowledging, hey, like this is tough, this is you know, gonna be a difficult task, it's something that but it is also it is not ignoring and kind of pretending that that the grief, that the pain, that the loss doesn't exist. And I think that's where that you've you have to find the balance of you know what the strong look like, what the strong, and also what the strong look like can also mean what's the strength that you show your kids if you have children, what's the strength that you use to bring your family together. All of that can be very much a process of bringing and talking about this loss, bringing and presenting it, showing people that I am dealing with this, but I'm strong enough to get up every day, and I'm strong enough to help my children, I'm strong enough to do all the things that I need to do, I'm strong enough to go to counseling, right? Like I'm strong enough to ask for help. Like all of that, like what people, men in particular, think strength is often is not asking for help, not showing weakness, not telling anybody you're struggling, right? Like those are things that often we present. And you know, my wife still tells me to this day, you know, we've we've we've known each other for eight years, been married for you know, for for going to six, and she'll tell me to this day, you know, sometimes you don't ask for help. And I have to acknowledge, like, yeah, that's that's that is solely Jamal being, you know, like the man that I can do it by myself, right? And I don't need help. And me trying to show strength even when I don't have the capacity, right? And I think that's something that in this time when you lose, when you're going through that grief process when you're in the in in kind of the early stages of it, like it doesn't help you. It doesn't help you to do that.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

So return to those early phases too. And and also I think you can say of your now wife Jordan, is when do you start paying attention? And and and instead of pushing through, just really kind of addressing, hey, this is what's happening in this time uh right now. So so say a little bit, go back to to also that earlier part now of you know, when do you start to pay attention instead of pushing through?

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah, I mean, I think you you have to start paying attention right away, right? I mean, you have to, and it's where's this is where it's important to continuously check in with yourself. If you check in your with yourself, you can actually, you know, sound strange, but you can have the conversation with yourself of how am I doing today? How did I do today? How did I treat the people who care about me? Yeah, how did I treat, right? How did I handle the most basic tasks? And I think in that moment, like for me, I know there were times where I felt it was necessary that I needed to do everything by myself because I know the routine. I know the routine, I know where the kids need to be, I know my job, I know this, and like all these things that are that were part that required two people before. Well, I know it, so I don't, I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. It was also me worrying about I don't want to put that burden on anybody else, right? Like, this is my burden. Back to the other question like this is my burden to cry, this is my cross to carry. Uh, should anybody else have to carry it. It took me a second to be able to actually ask people for help, right? You know, I think one of the first people was my mother-in-law, like again, she lived with us, but she helped with so many different so many things already. There was me saying, Oh, she's she's probably busy, right? But even the most basic thing of saying to her, hey, I need, can you watch the kids? I need like a like two hours for myself, right? Like, that's the the the the to me like some of the basic things. You have to kind of like start small, right? You if you start small, you start with small examples or small different ways that you you know don't feel like you have to do all the lifting, right? You're just asking people and your people because people want to help. That's the other thing. We talked about this, you know, previously is how many people want to help you if you ask. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

I mean, but but I think also the kind of address kind of what are those symptoms as far as whether you're pushed through or or you really address that. So I I think also those are early on, because as you were saying, you need time for yourself sometimes to just kind of recharge and then maybe you can get at it again until your your battery uh drains once once again. Right, right. I think uh also getting if if we're speaking to the man early on as widowers, is they need to start to look at what's going on daily. Just there are going to be signals, such as if there's uh uh your sleep is disturbed just in a persistent way, or you're isolating yourself a little bit more, or then, as we talked about, these numbing behaviors that people have, the obsessive addictions and what have you, going into the numbing behaviors of alcohol, drugs, and what have you, there's a challenge there. Yeah, you kinda kind of address that. So I think that's something guys, when if you're in grieving or depressed, you need look at the symptoms to that coping and that soothing that that's happening there.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah I think yeah yeah I think the point yeah I think to to to that one how I think about that one is kind of being strong includes being honest about what the loss is doing to you. That's like to me like it it's kind of taking the inventory but that you have to be honest around like what is this actually doing to me what is the effect it's having in on me how am I actually feeling and what am I doing that's particularly if it's not healthy or even if it is healthy like being able to kind of tune into those things like what is this actually doing for me and then I think the other part another theme that we talked about was you know kind of even tied to that is like when to pay attention instead of pushing through like you could take that inventory and be honest but if you just decide I'm gonna just push through it all like that's equally not healthy. Right? You know I think you have to like be able to kind of like look at you know where what are you actually doing you know when you take stock of these emotions or when you you know in in in and not just pushing through and plowing through the day you know trying to ignore the reality like that that's not healthy. Like you gotta do like if you look up and realize that you're going through all of this weeks have passed days have passed and you're not even checking in with yourself emotionally and trying to understand like what are the things that I'm dealing with right now. What am I thinking right now? What am I feeling right now? Like you gotta you gotta tune in like you can't just plow through each day without you know checking in with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah because I think in that way you're kind of losing touch with your sense of motivation. You're building on hope again and you you really need kind of that marker of of of hope because then there you have a a response and then it's okay I've learned from that you have this idea of where you want to be then you kind of reach that point and that helps you to move forward and not you know it it it and just you can't ignore these the the symptoms because they're they're just not going to disappear. You just have to address these challenges that come up that you're facing yourself. That's the way. So I I think at the end of it really is this idea that uh these were we talked about this numbing activities. It's not accusation. These signals are not accusation all the things that we just talked about this loss of motivation and the sleep disruption and the isolation and all of that it's not an accusation these signals it's it's it's information and it's what do you do with that? That that that's really what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah no it's true I mean because I I I think about it it's like it's the information piece is important because if you look at it and just say okay well I acknowledge these things they're happening and you don't do anything with it right you don't do anything to make the process better if you're going to see a counselor you don't mention these these these if you don't mention to a counselor that you're losing sleep or you're not you know or certain behaviors or if you don't allow them to help you how to manage and process this information like you're gonna be in a you know you're gonna be in an unhealthy place. But I think it's yeah like making sure you use them is is information. The next one is like help using help as a tool and not as a last resort right not waiting right so therapy coaching groups like you they don't wait don't wait till like you're ready to pull the fire along right don't wait till there's an emergency to ask for help to use these resources and tools like you gotta be proactive in leveraging them because you know we talk about what are the things we add to the tool kits right like these are all things that you you don't you don't go buy tools after you you know like it's like think about a buying a house like you don't buy the tools after you buy the house where you get the leak in the house you buy the tools and have them in the garage or the basement preach anticipating preach Reverend Jones preach yeah anticipating that something's gonna happen yeah right yeah and you like you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna keep the wrench in the drawer upstairs I'm gonna keep the screwdriver in the drawer upstairs that wet vac the wet vaccine just keep it in the basement because probably gonna need it in the basement yeah right like just like you you but the whole point is like you don't wait till there's an emergency you have these tools available so that you can access them and you can make sure you're doing the maintenance right think about it as maintenance I think that's a good way to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yeah because what what does it show? It it it it shows your competence.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

It shows competence not not waiting for the collapse to happen.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Exactly right yeah yeah yep yep um and last when we talk about this one often man I think it all comes down to how men perceive themselves in moments of weakness we perceive ourselves as if we are broken as if something is wrong with us in so many different ways whether we are dealing with regret whether we are feeling guilty whether we are dealing with grief and feeling sadness like so many times we think that these things are representative of us being broken. Even if we are depressed even if we are feeling even if we can't we're struggling to get back up it doesn't mean we're broken. It doesn't mean you're broken right it means that you have gone through something that is earth shattering and it has been earth shattering to you earth shattering to your family and the love those who love you and it just means you need to take the and accept the process right it it is it it truly does alter life but it doesn't end your life it doesn't end life you know yeah yeah yeah and that I think that's important distinction between grief and depression you know as you said I mean that that grief alters life doesn't mean that it's an end to it and you can see with depression it it's not a moral or spiritual failure either.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

These are all signals this flattening that we talked about this hollowing out uh it just it has to be addressed to fill ourselves back in so we so we can move forward.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yeah and I think something to you know that we think about that we talk about we we we talk about these things easily in our friendship and on our show I think we the reality is like you none of us are alone in asking the questions to ourselves. We're all thinking it to ourselves the question is whether or not we go and pose these questions and bring these topics up to other people who care about us other people who we should be using as you know you know resources and toolkits like that's the part that's important is being able to go and use these things that it's okay to ask the questions and it's okay to bring the questions up from the surf to the surface right yeah be because this healing process this this is a journey there's no final destination we're always kind of healing things were going to happen occurrences are going to happen in our lives and then we'd have to have the tools to then all right how do I repair myself once again because it's it's not going to be a fast process and it's one step after the other in some linear kind of formatted way.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

This is that that that that's not how this this this works at all. I think you know really this is as you and I know and a lot of the people listening to us is that this is what lost love looks like whether you had it whether you were trying to build it in your previous relationship and it didn't quite get to where it was it it's not fully dysfunction. Nope we all have some element in our marriages or we're all dysfunctional in some form of fashion we're all dysfunction but it's not completely lost if we're not trying to to build towards something that makes sense in that partnership. We know folks break apart that happens but you have to just be kind of really aware of what it is that you're not broken once this grief and depression and working through it.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

You've got to move on in life particularly if you have children and also you have more to give to somebody in you have so much more I mean you you that's the thing I think so much of us and we think I think and I think that's a a a great way for us to to kind of wrap this up is because you have so much more left in this life to give to the people in your family that's your children if you have your loved ones your friends David and I didn't embark on this journey for of getting back up out of just you know our own just desire to be on you know on screen or on audio we did it because right one we believe that these journeys these experiences have allowed us to say hey like you know what there's something we can give back to a community right and I think you have to think about it the same way there's so many people who are relying on you to be there so many people who are relying you relying on you for more and you have more to give right that that I think is an important piece like again we talked about like you know reef alters life it doesn't end it because you have so much more to give so yeah I guess I think I think we kind of covered it in the way that we want to hear more from people about this sense of are you depressed or you grieving well those two things coexist and it's okay to talk about it out loud to yourself and then reach out for help and and reach out to others professional or otherwise those who have experienced loss wherever that is and I think that's what we encourage you all listening to us tell us about your situation where you may be wrestling with this idea of am I depressed and am I completely numb and can't move or am I grieving I know the waves are going to come but this is how I addressed it.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Or reach out to to us listen to what we have done or said to kind of move through things routine just that self-assessment and also talking to professional help which is not a sign of weakness. So yeah so we just we Jamal we're just thankful for that people are tuning in to what we are mentioning and maybe comes close to their neighborhood the way they're feeling about it and we want to hear from folk about that don't we?

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Yeah no absolutely let us know what you're experiencing what you're feeling hit us up in our DMs and our number and you know always reach out know that you have a community not just within us but a community within your family your friends your loved ones who are there for you and uh we advise you to kind of stay focused always check in with yourself you are a great person you are not broken and you will get back up. That's right that's right thanks for joining us thank you cool