37. When Life Hits Again - Unemployed after loss

Episode 37: When Life Hits Again - Unemployed after loss

What happens when life knocks you down… again?

In this episode, Jamal and David step into something raw and unfiltered. Just weeks after being laid off, Jamal shares what it feels like to take another hit—after already navigating the loss of a spouse and rebuilding life once before. This isn’t a reflection episode. This is real time.

There are no polished answers here—just honest conversation about identity, pressure, fatherhood, and the quiet weight of starting over when you thought you were already back on your feet. They talk about what grief taught them that still applies, what feels different this time, and what “getting back up” actually looks like when you don’t have clarity—only responsibility.

If you’re in a season where life feels uncertain, heavy, or unfinished… this episode meets you right there.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Getting knocked down is part of life. Getting back up is how we live. 

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Directors: Marlon Jackson & Ted Winners (Like A Gazelle Productions)
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with Greek Meet Growth. Two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding.

SPEAKER_06 0:13

We're talking about life after cancer, love, loss, and everything no one tells you. I'm David McLean, and I'm Jamal Jones. Welcome back to Getting Back Up Life After Death Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Yeah, and uh There's this idea, Dave, that once you go through something as traumatic as loss or you know, any traumatic or or difficult challenge you face, there's this idea that you're good. That life is gonna be easy. It gave you, you know, you got dished out some bad cards, and you get a new deck and you're good again.

SPEAKER_06 1:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Um but life doesn't actually give you a break.

SPEAKER_06 1:06

Yeah. I mean, you think, okay, I've taken my hits, it's done. Let's let let's keep moving. No, mm-mm. Doesn't work with that. It isn't that way?

SPEAKER_03 1:17

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_06 1:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

Uh so lit, man, listen, I had a I got one. I got one.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Okay, so you you got some hits? Got some hits. Okay. Took my lumps. Okay. Lifespins, you know, fairly smooth sailing. So so so you're saying things come back around. Something comes. I don't know if it comes back around, but but you're not done yet with the hits. No, the hits keep coming. And I'm not talking about bad boy hits.

SPEAKER_06 1:49

You want to baby face right and hit out. Nah, it's not those. You ain't Timberland over here, Missy. No. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

All right. No, so it's it's you know, about um two weeks now. I was, I, you know, my wife, my family, and I, we were coming back from a family trip to the West Coast. We went to the to Cali. Okay. And um we drove up the coast. It was a beautiful trip. Okay. I got to like unplug, decompress, de stress, all the things that you should do during the D. Yes, yes, yes. You know, emails, we're on mute, email text chains that I didn't need to pay attention to, we're on mute, and um came back, you know, refreshed, so fresh and so clean, as they say. And got to work Monday morning, went through most of the day and finished lunch, hop on a call, and found out that my time was up. Oh man. I got let go. Oh man. Got let go. Yeah. I'd been with my company for for a while, for a few for for a pretty good time, uh time period. Yeah. Yeah. And um that was it.

SPEAKER_06 2:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Yeah. So that was a hit. That that's a hit. That's that's that's definitely one that maybe a miss.

SPEAKER_06 3:05

A miss to a degree that and it happens. This is what we're talking about today. Just this idea that when you think some of the more challenging are over, then it hits you again. And you have to rebuild. And you've done it once, you can do it again. So today we're gonna kind of talk about this process of rebuilding and some thoughts and maybe some alternative careers for some, depending on where you are, whether age or experience as it relates to to your career. So we want to see what, and we'll talk about we'll some ideas, we'll what what's the next fit?

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, right, I think you know, we we we'll tackle these and themes. Yeah, right. And I think we'll call this one the second hit. Okay. Um, and I think, you know, for a lot of us grieving, grieving, you know, spouses or or or those grieving, loss of a spouse, a lot of times, you know, this is something that could happen earlier. Yeah, right. For me, it's been several years since I lost. I've been remarried. You know, I would say probably the only hit that we took was kind of going through COVID, right? Yeah. Um, and and and navigating during that time period. But really, like I felt like, you know, my job at the time was secure, but a lot of, you know, I did put a lot of weight in, okay, that security, that financial security. And I know you you and I talked about that now for you going through that. We we have these conversations about job, job security, how do you progress in your job? Right. Right. But there's this element where it's like, man, I I can't lose this job. That's just me. It's just one income. Yeah. Right. Um, and I remember having that fear. And in many cases, it it causes you to deal with a lot that you probably wouldn't deal with in a in a different situation.

SPEAKER_06 4:58

But but how does that kind of compare to grief and loss of a spouse?

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's you've you've gone through this moment where you just got hit really hard with losing a spouse, and you feel like, ma'am, I can't take anything else. Right? Whether if you believe in God or like you're like I'm good, right? Like because I can't take another hit. Yeah. And I think that's the part where for a lot of people, when you go through laws, there's a part, like, I mean, I know for me, like, I personally felt like I'm good. I think you've given me I've got the biggest thing that I could deal with. I I had the biggest hit, so to speak, yeah, that I could deal with that I deserve. So life should be easy for now.

SPEAKER_06 5:48

Meaning this grief loss.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

So not just myself, to the family. To yourself, to the family.

SPEAKER_06 5:56

This should be at least at this stage.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Yes, that should be it at this stage. Okay. Right. And and I think a lot of people go through that, right? Like balancing that. But in a day and age now, where like every company is doing layoffs, you know, from the blue-collar companies all the way up to the white-collar companies, like, you know, big and small, like everybody's feeling it right now. Everybody is is is is you know, kind of potentially gonna be impacted in some form or fashion. Right. And that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_06 6:31

If this the waves, the cycles. Yeah. This here we go again.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It is the emotional, here we go. Can I get a can I get a break? Can I get a break? Right. And I think that's something that you know, you you you get through fatigue of going through loss, loss of a spouse, loss of a partner. Now you gotta go through this other wave. Like, oh my gosh, loss of a job, right? Loss of my financial stability. What's this gonna do to my family? And I think the thing that, you know, that I've thought about in this, you know, is, you know, I would say the core theme on this one really is like that grief actually per, you know, it actually prepares you for survival, right? It prepares you to be able to pivot to a new way to think about things, a new approach, a new strategy, right? It it it prepares you for for surviving another battle. Right. And I think that that's the reality of it. You've already been tested, right? You've already been battle tested. This couldn't be worse. This couldn't be worse, yeah. Right. And and it it just is as frustrating, as angry as you could be, the reality is I've dealt with worse. I've survived worse, I've gotten back up from worse. Right.

SPEAKER_06 7:50

I I think the challenge too, and something you have worked through, but then also for those listening to us, is your identity is hit again. Because as men in particular, so often we're defined by the jobs that we hold, the positions, the titles, and all that stuff at the end of the day, in the final analysis, really doesn't matter. Yeah. However, that's how society sees us. Oh, well, where does he work or what does he do? What's his job? How much money does he make? When it should be, well, what's his connection to his family, his children? Is he a good person? Is someone like you know, that so that again uh w we're so tied up with this idea of this job equals identity, it equals this sense of structure and to ourselves and maybe to society, it's this sense of uh validation that this is the only measure by which we are uh seen, perceived as important to the our family and to a greater society.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

And and I think there's this piece, right? It it you know the the identity element is real because there's always this thought for me, and I think there's the you could think I'm sure you feel it too, is like loss is humbling. Yep. Right? It allows you to really check back into like, well, who am I really at the end of the day? Like my identity wasn't may or may not have been these things that I thought it was. And I think losing a job brings you back to that same place, right? You know, and and and look asking yourself, well, okay, well, without this job, who am I? Right? You fundamentally haven't changed, you're still the same person, right? The job is not gonna be the same. That's right, you know. And the job doesn't define you, right?

SPEAKER_06 9:42

Yeah, right. Doesn't define you, yeah. Yeah, it's different losing a person versus losing a a job. It's so much of your identity is definitely tied to this existence you were supposed to have with that person. Whether it's a good relationship or not, you're still formed by that relationship with that person. Job is it's a job. Yeah. It it's it's a hopefully you enjoy it. Hopefully you enjoy it, but it's called job and work for a reason. Right. It's called work. You leave for a reason right at the end of the day. Yeah. Or, you know, the fit is elsewhere for you. Yeah. You know, but it's what's happening in your personal life, yeah, and what's happening with that person that you're sharing this existence and moving forward with. So losing person is definitely different than losing jobs, no question. Yeah. When you lost your job, w what kind of hit you first? Did you have to think about it as far as was there fear or identity? I mean, what what did you kind of think of?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

The the part that hit me first was I actually happy. Right? And I think that's something, you know, particularly like at this stage I am in my career, you know, you and I talk about like what's next. Like, you know, I'm 50, like retirement's a a good throwaway, but I can see the touchdown. Sure. Right. I can see the end zone. Oh shoot, I like that. Yeah, yeah. So and and that part, like I've been thinking about more as when I think about like the time that I want to give to my family, that you know, what what what values we have as a family and what's important to us and what that looks like, you know, at at retirement. So it it wasn't so much with you know, around, oh my gosh, my identity's tied to this place, but it was more like, man, how does this affect my ability to get downfield? Because it's there. Because it's there. The touchdowns there. The touchdowns, yeah. Right. I I have to, I'm gonna score. Right. Right? Like at some point, I'm gonna score. It could be two points, it could be three point, it should be full on, you know, good touchdown. Like, but I'm gonna score. Like, I know I'm gonna score.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

I think that's the part where it it affected me that way. Like, ooh, how does this affect like the plan? And you know, they say, you know, my father was always tells me, you make plans and God laughs. That's it. And that's it. The the plan has changed. I haven't changed. I think the part that hit me the hardest was more like, ooh, Bills. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like, thankfully, I'm in a place where like, you know, my wife and I, Jordan and I are are very planful. My now, my now wife, we are very planful, um, thankful, thankful of her because I was in survival mode for so long.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

As a single dad. Yeah. And even during Janice's cancer battle, like my late wife's cancer battle, I was in survival mode for a long time. So thankfully, when I kind of got through that and got past that, like, we were very planful about like what is what happens when there's an emergency. And yeah, when you're at a company for five, you know, 10 years plus, you can get comfortable. Like, I'm good. For sure. Right. But I think that that the part where it's like, okay, well, what's next? Is the fear of this search, you know, finding the right job, that's part of it. Yeah. Finding the thing that not just is gonna pay the bill, but bills, but I'm gonna enjoy doing, um, hopefully, is when is that gonna come?

SPEAKER_06 13:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

And that's that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_06 13:30

Yeah, and and and I think this idea, this this theme about loss of this identity, it yeah, you you you can you definitely will lose your income. Yeah. I I and I I would kind of change it around that you're you're not necessarily losing a part of yourself, it's closing out of that chapter, and then as you said, you reevaluate. Well, was I happy? Don't I need to find some other stuff at this point in my life that makes me happy?

SPEAKER_03 13:59

So I I that's the way I yeah, and then you get into like those, but maybe this isn't so much of a maybe this is more of a a new version, yeah. Right, of of who I am and what I what I should be doing at this point in my life. Yeah, I I definitely can see that. Yeah. Um, yeah, and then we I mean, you know, we we the pressure of providing, kind of I I alluded to it, like whether you're one income, two income, like there's gonna be the pressure. You build your lives off of functioning and a certain with a certain level of comfort or access or things that you can provide to your kids. Sure. And when you have when you lose an income, especially if you're the sole breadwinner coming out of a situation where you're the s the only parent, yeah, that's that shit is terrifying.

SPEAKER_06 14:45

It sure is, right? Like I mean, that's where I am now. Right. It's like I nothing is promised and guaranteed to me. I know that.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's that's that's the reality. Like you have to be prepared that prepared for the reality that it no nobody is completely safe from the economics, from business, from business decisions, right? And and the one thing that I I know a lot of people do personalize it.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Like, like, how come I wasn't performing? Was I not performing well enough? Or my employer was not thoughtful enough, or whatever. Like, right, it's hard to remove those feelings for for some people and understandably, but it's just the company, right? Right. And and they're there for a purpose, right? To make money, right? Right. And I think that's the hard part sometimes to remove yourself from that and and and get into that pressure, providing whether it's internal pressure that you give to yourself, or whether it's the external pressure, the external realities that you've got to make sacrifices as a family right now, how are the kids gonna look at you when you have to say, no, we can't do this, or maybe we we thought we were gonna go on vacation, but now we're not. Like, I'm personally thankful that like it happened to me after the vacation.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Like after my family took a vacation, because if it happened to me before we took a vacation, I might have I might have been like, yeah, no, like only half of us are going. We're canceling it off.

SPEAKER_06 16:25

Austerity measures, yeah. Nah, we ain't doing that, and the other no, no, no. Choices might might have been different, and I think that's but not only that, it's you know you're modeling for your children. Hey, when adversity hits, how how do we deal with it? Right. Do what are the steps to whatever level they're gonna see, yeah, and internalize that original program we always talk about, Joel, right? This original program, what happened in your household growing up, that you then take when you have your own family, and whether you repeat some of the good things or bad things that happen in the household that you grew up in, that you carry over, what translates in this contemporary society in your household now. And so they're looking at y'all. Yeah, you know, you guys that we're talking to, the two of us, they're the they're looking at us to see how we deal with all that.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

And that's something that I think about too, right? You know, like I I remember, so of course I told my wife right away. I did not do the thing that some people do where they pretend to go to work for, you know, two, three weeks. I told my wife that day. Um and I also told, you know, my I told Zya that day. She's she's in the house, and I told her that day, and I said, hey, like, went upstairs, she came home from school. I walked up and I said, Hey, like, you know, I think I asked how her day was going. And then, you know, after shooting a shit for a couple minutes, I said, Hey, like, I have something to tell you. Got let go today. She's like, What? You know, surprised and gave me a hug. And are you okay? And I'm like, I'm good. I'm good. And I and I actually was, right? I I actually am good. Yeah. But for you know, being honest with her in that moment, that hey, we're probably gonna have to make some sacrifices, but I don't want you worrying about me. Right? I'm gonna get through this, we will get through this together. I'm gonna be looking for a new job and taking my time to figure out what's next. But yeah, we're okay. We will be okay. And like just like giving her that comfort and reinforcement for me was like the first step that I needed to do with with her. Simona, she's five. She's you know, she comes home every day, and I'm I'm you know, as you were, as it's like as I was. So she's too young for it to, you know, to to to to notice. Um, you know, as long as I'm making her breakfast in the morning, she's probably fine and happy. But that that was important. I think the the other part is, you know, the kind of idea here is like just because life gets hard, and just because this is gonna be a new struggle for the family doesn't mean that my responsibilities go away. That's right. Like they fundamentally go away. There's a new version of Jamal, there's gonna be a new version of you, but your responsibilities are the same. Yeah. Right. And you can't ignore that they're there. Yeah. You may have to take a different strategy to to tackle them and to deal with them. That's that's what has to change.

SPEAKER_06 19:27

This too shall pass. Yeah. Yeah. I think what we can learn in this next theme is pulling in the grief experience to the loss of a job. Now we we we talked about it a little earlier in in this conversation, but I I think there's there's a little bit more I think we can say about it is that I think as widowers, when we look at ourselves now, it's man, how did I get through all this? As far as the emotional piece. Yeah. Because plenty of stories of men who have not been able to cope with life without a partner. Or a woman, yeah. Or yeah. Well, you know, whatever that partner is, you know, you know, yeah, exactly. That we lost lot wives. That's the construct we know. And now it's gone. Right. But we survived despite all of that. And I think it's again, if if we can go through that, oh hey man, we can we can deal with the job thing. Yeah, you know, we can definitely get through that.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

Yeah. Yeah. And that thing they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Yeah, no question about it. Right. And and you know, I think it's a part. I think it's it's true. It's like it's not this is not worse than losing. Like losing my job is not worse than losing. Yeah. Right. It's it's it's not worse than losing Janice. It's not worse worse than losing your late wife. Yeah, my late wife. It's not loose worse than losing my mother-in-law. It's not losing like I I'd rather go through job loss a thousand times than to lose a loved one. Yeah. Right. And I think that's something that when you think about that and you put that perspective, I think that's important to keep in front of you.

SPEAKER_06 21:06

Yeah. I mean, talk about the ultimate pressure of in the the below the surface, all these emotions, uh, the sense of loss and absence, just trying to work through that as on the surface, you're still conducting life that you're living with the people who count on you and what have you. That's a lot of pressure, and yet we've pushed through that. Meaning all of us who are talking and you listening, and and especially our community, we get plenty of stories of that, and we want to continue to hear more of those stories. Right. But I think that's definitely true is there isn't anything greater as far as functioning under pressure than than losing a spouse. Losing for sure, there's no question. Yeah. So um you kinda already kind of talked about this, but what are you actually using right now from kind of the level of grief in this journey that you were accustomed to at one time? What are you using from that journey to for for kind of right now?

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Change. Right. I think that's the biggest thing. Like my days are doing are different. Right? Understanding that similar to when I lost my late wife, the life was different. Like my morning routine became different. More things were now on me than they were before. And that reality of understanding that with every challenge, with every experience, you're going to have to recognize that things are going to change, routine is going to change. And as a in a in a in a way, like the way you motivate yourself has to change. Right. I had like, you know, when when Janice passed, I my motivation was getting the kids up in the morning, getting the kids out the door, getting them home safely, getting them fed, getting them to bed. That was like that was the motivation. Yeah. Right. And do all of that safely. Right. And and it became easier and easier. And then I was able to kind of focus more on okay, like my safety, my health, like my mental health, my the change now is I'm not getting up today, right now, with somebody else's to-do list. Right? It's my to-do list, my family's to-do list, things that I have to pay attention for them. And yeah, I have to also be plugged in to like what comes next for me. Like understanding, taking the time and the space to actually think about what do I actually want to do now? Right. What should I be doing now? Right? What is this new version of me? Yeah. And I think it's like understanding that like that that looks and feels different. Like there's a part where I wake up now and I'm like, man, this is void. There's something missing. Yeah. Oh, it was work. Work is missing. And it like you think about how much that consumes of you. Yeah. And when you don't have it, like, not to say that finding a job isn't work. It is. But it's different. It's a different set of deliverables. Like, I am the person who sets the deadline. I am the person who determines what the ROI is. Yeah. Right. Not some some company. That's right. Right. And I think that that's the change. That that's what's different now.

SPEAKER_06 24:41

Definitely change. And I think it also goes back to our conversations before about setting this routine as well. Yeah. And the things that have always carried you through, especially from uh uh uh through the the most difficult times of losing a spouse of okay, let me get my health right. Yeah, let me make sure I'm eating right, let me make sure that if I see I'm dipping down, I have people around me to have the conversation that because that's what this is about is the people around me.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

It's easier for me to dig into the bag of popcorn today, right? It is it is easier for me to, but then I have to look at myself and say, nah, this is not this is not part of the routine and the process.

SPEAKER_06 25:21

Why it shouldn't enter that kind of thinking or that routine and actually disrupting what you know you can go back, go back to your hits, the good ones.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Yeah, exactly. And learning new things, like I mean, learning or tuning into new aspects of of of who you are. Yeah. Right. And I think that I'm I'm in that phase now of like, okay, what are these new things that I should be thinking about? Right. You know.

SPEAKER_06 25:46

Yeah. And I think it's this core idea of those first muscles built from loss prepares you for what you're going to need, and you didn't know you were gonna need them again, but here you are. Yeah. So I think I think that's definitely what it is.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah, I think the the you know, one thing, you know, as we think about like for for those who are just embarking on this or or new to this, yeah. Unfortunately, like the last few years, I feel like this has just been the reality. Yeah. Right. I mean, the economy, some people say the economy is great, some people say the economy is, but I think it depends on where where you are, what industry you're in. Exactly. Right? Like, I I you know, I think what's your tax break? What's your tax brass? How insulated you are. Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean the reality is like, I mean, you're talking about over a million job cuts just last year. Yeah. You know, another we're we're probably trending to that this year. Yeah. Right. Um, where you just, I mean, just uh just to name a few companies, you know, Meta, with I think 10,000 employees cut last year, probably another 10,000 to be cut this year. Amazon, you know, over 27,000 employees, you know. I mean, every like every of the major companies, right? And I I laugh at this list just reading these off because like these are companies that I would probably go and be like, oh yeah, all right. I'm leaving my company and now I'm gonna go work for these companies. And like they're all like when you list that, it can be disheartening. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06 27:20

Yeah, and that's just ad tech. That's just ad tech. But but it's it it's uh all of these other in in these other industries as well. Yeah, you know, you you see UPS, but the job strobes being lost, cut, minimized, phased out there as well. Nike, Nike, I mean, and you know how you love those shoes. Nobody's nobody's not buying it. Oh man. All right, so nah. I think you know, the the reality is, as you said, is more coming, and it's insulating yourself and and and kind of thinking about what next and what makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

Yeah. Um, you know, one of the things I think you have to, you know, one of the first steps, like again, that it's to move from the sour note, right? Unfortunately, though, is like all these companies are trying to figure out ways to make more money, to save more money, whatever the metric, KPI, whatever the whatever the the checkpoint is, like you've got to figure out like how do you reposition reposition what you already know. Yeah, right. What's the fastest path to get back? And I I don't say fastest in a sense of like this reckless abandoned job search. I think it has to be very intentional, and you have to really think about okay, like what's the right way that I can do this, thinking back to your core responsibilities, right? Being present for your kids, letting them know like you're there. I would say if you're a family who's more recently going through the grieving process, not not eliminating your ability to be present for your kids, right? Like I think that's important too. But you know, I think you've gotta kind of like in a way you've gotta like gotta explore the different things, right? If you're in a position to consult, if you're in a position to do contract or side jobs, um, you know, if depending on where you are in your career, can you be advisory or go work for a different you know company or industry altogether? I think those are things that that have to work, but I think you really have to do kind of like an inventory on like what is it that you are capable of so that you can at least know what cars you have at your disposal.

SPEAKER_06 29:33

Yeah, and and I think in this first category that we're kind of talking about. Now, this is somebody maybe with a degree or years of experience. Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Go ahead, go ahead. Yep. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the that's the part, right? You know, that that part is a there's a part of it which like you've almost kind of got to be as flexible as you possibly can to position yourself to the different opportunities that at the end of the day they're gonna allow you to like pay your bills to take care of your family. Yeah. Um I think that's in important. And then there comes the balance of how you find those jobs, right? Like there's the whole bunch of debate of like how many of these jobs and job boards are real versus like you know, you know, the different ways. Like I remember when I was younger, it was like the you know, the the the spray and pray strategy.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

Right, you just get these a hundred hours it's a volume of somebody's because it's somebody somebody, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

But now like when you're in a situation where you have a network, right? You you if you have a network, a community of people you know that you've worked with that know you, that know your work and know what you're capable of. Like, I think it's important to tap into that network more than anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:51

So that I think kind of this as you're thinking about the new world and looking for jobs, the next thing is really to you may need to pivot to adjacent industries. Yeah, these are the same skills, but we know this is a a new market now. Yeah. So it's this, it's not you don't kind of need a new identity. That that's not what it, what we're saying. It's just it's just a new arena now. So when we think of and we just kind of did a little research on the little bit of this, is that you know, for strong industries or the appropriate ones for mid-career transition. So you're you've been at a job for a number of years, you've been out of college for a while, you've been you have some some amount of experience. They the need is here, I'll just name a few healthcare administration and and just repackaging those skills there. Yeah. Operations, vendor management, so the the people who come in and out of the hospital system, who are, you know, well, we want to set up new chairs here, or we need uh new medical equipment here, whatever that is, is just speaking with those vendors down to the kitchen, whatever it is, whatever the resources for for managing that area. And then someone who under an engineer understands logistics, or someone's just been good at that. It's an operations person. And and then the supply chain. Well, what do we need to bring in here at the right price? That kind of thing. Property management, real estate, real estate is well operation. There's always real estate. There's always there's always a place that needs someone to fill commercial or residential. There's no question about that. Renewable energy is very, very hot, right now. It's getting hotter. Oh, yes. It's getting hotter. Some say it is. Some say it is for a certain reason. Some say it's not.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

A certain reason it's getting hotter. But go ahead. No, I think that one's true. I think you you yeah, renewable energy and infrastructure, like whether it's renewable energy or whether it's declining infrastructure of infrastructure of of existing, you know, energy resources, like right. Right. And I and needs to be done. I think it's again taking advantage of those right opportunities.

SPEAKER_06 33:13

And and Jamal, we're older parents. And we're sons and daughters of older parents. Right. We have older parents. Yeah. So the senior services and assisted living.

SPEAKER_05 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:26

It oh man, that's we're aging more so now than we have a population to replenish to a great extent.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:35

Fewer people having children, having more dogs and cats and others. Yeah. That's that I'm not saying that's bad having dogs and cats. Yeah. As you're I'm just saying, I'm just looking at the numbers and the population. So I don't want any the comments about I have something about dogs and cats, because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

No, but I mean it's true. It's like these these are industries in a way that are looking that would like fee, they're looking for you know, people to come in to to fill a lot of these roles, you know, to do work that they need a lot more people to do. Yeah. Right. And and and and and being able to think differently about the industries because they're growing, right? These are industries that haven't necessarily been growing fast, but they are more so now. Yeah. You know, so yeah. Um yeah, I mean, I think it's it's how do you translate your experience into that language? How do you bring what you've done for another industry or another company into these new places? I think that's important. And being able to think about making that bridge. Yeah. Bridging there's certifications out there, they're I won't say they're easy to get because they're time and they're cost, but like you got to think about the investment that you make in your cell.

SPEAKER_06 34:46

Yeah. And I think redefining whatever the role that you're in for that that new area, that new industry. So if if if you're in brand partnerships or something, that's more about well, revenue growth from that relationship or or vendor relationships or whatever it is. So maybe it's transferable in that way when you're thinking of that adjacent.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Yeah, I think it's about being being creative about how do you again create this new version of yourself that can continue supporting your family the way you the way you want to. Um, I'll pass this next one to you because I think we we we talked a little bit about this, and I know you were excited to to talk about the the the skilled the skilled trades.

SPEAKER_06 35:29

I am right. I am mechanical, electrical, and plumbing, MEP as they call it. And a lot of it comes from well, Jamal and I are in old homes. So we see a lot of people come through. And you already all know I'm very chatty and I'm curious. I'm just a curious person. So I have different service people come in about the oven, the refrigerator, the the washer and dryer. I I wonder, hey, how tell me about this this world that you're in? And a lot of them tell me, and this is goes into the story that I told at a client dinner or lunch that I had recently. So I was I was mentioning that I have a lot of people come through, not a lot, but it sometimes it seems that way. Yeah. Um with these old homes that that we're in. And I went, hey, how did how did you get into dishwasher repair? And then they go through, oh yeah, there's a training program, and they pay very good money to start, and they need a lot of professional people who have this sense of ownership of the what they're working on. They they meaning they want people to take as great care of that item they're fixing, washer, dryer, whatever the plumbing, whatever it is, as if it were their own home. Right. And that sense of professionalism, because there's a lot of folk who aren't going out for those jobs because in their mind they think, oh, I have this degree, I'm not going into this professional service area of MEP. They need folk there big time. There's you they're always going to need to fix a washer, dryer, an oven, because a lot of it is electronic as well. So that training, if you come from engineering or math, whatever it is, they need you. So I was at this lunch, and as I was saying to a client who had a brother who had just come out, he's been looking for a job for a while with a master's in computer science. Can't find a job. So those places we listed before where they're cutting jobs, yeah, that's the the the platinum places that folk want to go. Maybe that's not it because there's so many people trying to go for those jobs. Yeah. Hey man, you may need to talk to your brother about the mechanical, electric, and plumbing. Yeah. Because there are a lot of opportunities there. Yeah. Electricians, plumbers, those working on HVAC systems, the the actual technical, not just the manual and physical part of that. And and why this is such a great world is there's great demand for people in this world. Yeah, there's massive shortage of skilled labor right now. There are businesses, there's a someone owns an HVAC, they're older, they don't have anybody for they're trying to sell their businesses.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 38:31

And private equity's already gotten into this world. Oh, yeah. They're buying a whole bunch of these. Yeah. So there's a gentleman I used to call on, he started one. It's a billion-dollar company now.

unknown 38:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 38:42

So it it there's there's a lot that we're overlooking when we come out with certain degrees and think, oh, that's the direction I need to go. No, no, no. You're look, you need to look over here as well. There's something that you may be missing out on that's going to give you that sense of control and ownership.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Yeah. I mean, it's I I you you mentioned that uh I have a the gentleman who runs, who owns the uh pest control company that we use. He wasn't he didn't start it. His I think his father started it years ago, and he was off doing something else, lawyer or something, I can't remember. But you know, eventually his his father was getting too old and decided he wanted to get rid of the business, and he said, Wait, hold on, dad. I'm I don't want to do what I'm doing anymore. He took his father's business over and just expanded it. Yeah, exactly. So I think it was a lot of opportunity, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:34

Now, there is some training involved, could be six to twenty-four months, depending on what what what you're looking to do. There's some physical work to some of this. And but there are supervisory roles that you can ascend to, and it'll it'll probably come fairly quickly for for some when you kind of prove yourself and right in in in different ways. And and especially when you think about some of the folks in our category, Jabal of the 50 plus, is uh you know, you're you're not gonna be crawling under the house forever. It's and maybe physically you can't do that. Yeah, but I'm at that point. Oh, you're at that yeah, yeah. Okay, but there are other inside, outside, of course, that may fit for kind of how you manage kind of the physical aspect of it.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Yeah, like bring bringing those managerial skills to other industries, to other businesses, to your point. Like we talked about, like that's helpful. Um, I think another one is government and institutional roles. Okay. Again, they may not have the shiny bright names that we all, you know, follow and use and all of that, but the reality is like they're great jobs. I have personally many friends who work for the government in different capacities. And yes, they're scrutiny lately. Come under scrutiny and all of that. But the the reality is those jobs for statewide, local wide, or federal-wise, like they're still there. You're right. And and those companies, the many cases they're suffering because everybody wants to go and work for right the big names. But I think those are all, you know, you know, all viable companies, and reason why those are great. There's less age bias in many cases, benefits are amazing, you know, your income is very predictable, right? Because they've got to follow a lot of guidelines. In many cases, there's unions and things of that sort that are in place. Um, the challenge is like sometimes it's slower. Yeah. Right. So if you were interested in it, start the process earlier. Um, and then yeah, many there are situations where it is potentially lower upside, right? So, you know, that the progress upwards is a is a slower process or you know, a l a more you know, more not a straight line process, more about time versus output, some cases.

SPEAKER_06 41:54

But and in some cases you may not have it if you're of a certain age. Uh and that's true. Or one that's reality, right? Like or want it. Or want it. Exactly. Exactly. I think then just controlling your own destiny if you can. Just uh an individual business owner, entrepreneurship, figure out what those surfaces are that are transferable to kind of this new world that that you're in.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

So what it And that doesn't necessarily mean easier work. No, right, because I think that's that's the reality too, is start your business is not an easy thing. Right. It takes time, commitment.

SPEAKER_06 42:26

However, it can be very fulfilling for those who are kind of controlling what they could can control as far as their income earning, just their sense of if I do X, I'm actually getting Y back. Right. You know, that at work sometimes it doesn't feel that when you work for somebody.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

So you run your own business, you you know, a lot of times your failure is your failure. That's it. If when you work for somebody else in another big company, your failure is not always your failure. It's you know, because somebody else didn't do what they needed to do, or the business strategy or decisions changed way above your pay grade. Totally. So a little bit more uh control.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think we kind of talked about the MEP world, so the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing, yeah. So that those kind of home services. And then it's also think about what your skills are, and yeah, then that's this kind of niche consulting based on what you have done right before and and kind of setting up shop in that way.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:25

Um, we know some people who are franchise owners as well. Uh, we've heard we've heard the good and we've heard the challenging as it relates to that.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if it's same with a network, if you are thinking about exploring your own business, franchising, consulting, MEP, or something like that, yeah. Reach out to your network, see who's doing it, yeah, learn from somebody's successes as much as somebody else's mistakes. I think it's it's very helpful. Um, and then you know, what action, you know, what what actually works after a year of unemployed being unemployed? I'm Not there yet. We spoke to uh uh Dijon a few months ago.

SPEAKER_06 44:06

So Dijon, just again, he's a marketing professional, someone in Jamal's network in the past. He gave his experience. He had he's been uh unemployed for a lengthy time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

So yeah, but I mean I think that's an important part. Like you, you again, you know, the job boards are the job boards. You know, you could debate what percentage of those roles are real, you could be debate what percentage of those roles are posted because they have to go through the process and they may be already pegged for somebody else, and but they're there, they're there, you know. So obviously you see great opportunities that are exciting that that look like just something you could do, you know, get your resume out, reach out to somebody in your network even better to see, hey, you know, you work at this company or you know, do you know this team? Can you, you know, kind of connect me or give me some perspective? I think that's always great. The direct outreach is always infinitely better. Um, you know, so get continue to leverage your network aggressively. I'm in that phase right now of like really tapping into my network. And in some cases, I have people in my network proactively reaching out to me. Yeah. This is one thing like that I think we we didn't talk about your identity and the element of shame. Right? A lot of people, a lot of us feel shame when we lose our jobs. Yeah. And it's okay to go through that, especially in a situation where it's just like if if they came back to a situation where it's like performance related. Great, like you've got to do some some introspective looking and see what what was going on. Yeah. But I would say majority of these layoffs, people impacted by layoff, it's not performance related, right? It's a numbers game. But I think it you do feel shame. Don't feel shame telling people you need help. Don't feel people shame saying to somebody, hey, this chapter has closed. I'm looking for my next chapter. I think that for me has been revealing right at this point in my career, being able to open, you know, open that up and have that conversation with my network and having my network proactively reach out to me and say, How can I help? Yeah. They may not have the answer, they may not have a job, but they're actually reaching out. If I'm not reaching out to them, in many cases, they're reaching out to me and saying, Hey, I know what you're capable of. How can I help? Right. Yeah. That that's huge. So, like, don't, you know, I think it's it's it's hard. I say, you know, it's easier said than done, but you know, try to dig yourself out of that shame element of being, because guess what? We just ran through the list. If you were part of it and you worked at one of the big tech companies, there are 10,000 other people that unfortunately went through what you went through.

SPEAKER_06 46:54

Or the other service companies, they're all it's it's across the board. So yeah, I think that's that's a really good point, especially those who've been out an over a year or more and unemployed and very much want to get back in there. Yeah. And I think that's where it's about staying active. Yes. I think is important, even if it's unpaid. Because people are seeing what your uh your skills are, and that's where so many employers are thinking about bringing people on to their team. Not that someone can oversee something so much, but they have the skills to actually do the thing they used to oversee. Yeah. So whether that's a consulting project of of some sort, uh, volunteer roles in volunteer organizations, people can see and they work at other places, or maybe you go to not for profit. Maybe that's another departure to something you hadn't thought of. So that there there is also that. Anything really that shows there isn't this huge gap in your activity? Because then there'll be questions. Yes, we all go through that sense of shame of why am I or you're fortunate if you don't have to go through it. But the reality is that many of us now, the numbers bear out that we are going through this. Yeah, so it's what are you doing to fill that time? Because you're gonna have to talk about it in some form or fashion, and it can be a source of strength as well, not showing or expressing some kind of weakness as well.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

And it's a healthy way when we talk about modeling. If your kids see you and you're an employee, you're not working, and you're, you know, in front of the TV eating, you know, with the hand in the back popcorn back, everything. You love that popcorn. You've been eating a lot of pots. I have had a lot of popcorn. Is that what's going on? I've done after my workout, though. After my workout. Um, you know, but I mean I I think So Trader Joe's has this great Oh Lord, they have a great kettle corn popcorn. It's like my crack right now. Um you know you're hungry right now. I am at lunchtime. Yeah, yeah. But no, I think the other part, right? Like it back to that point, it it allows you to also show your kids what resilience looked like. Yeah. Like when you're when your kids, your family, you know, see that you are not letting this thing get you down. Yeah, it's a reminder to them of how hard you worked to get them through loss. How hard you worked to get them through the last challenge your family faced. And they're seeing it once again. So you're emulating what success and struggle looks like. Yeah. Right. And I think that's important, you know, for you to have. And it also helps with your own sense of self-worth. Right. That's important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

Um, you know, and it allows you to control, like you said, it's like you're controlling your narrative. Yeah. Right. Like you're saying, hey, yeah, I've haven't worked for this company for a while, but here's what I've done since then. Right. Right. And it's you really taking ownership and controlling your destiny. Um, I think a big part of it is, you know, the last, you know, uh a really important part of this is it's a mindset shift. You're going from a place of comfort, you know, potentially a place of comfort, knowing that you had this check, these benefits, yeah, this lifestyle that was insulated and protected. And you're going from this mindset, you know, of of that changing, but also feeling like maybe you're now not where you need to be. Maybe you're behind where you won. Right. But the reality is like you're probably just coming from a situation where you were undervalued in the wrong system, right? And you have to find yourself in the right system where you are valued, whether that's you doing something completely left field from what you were doing, whether it's you doing your own business, right, or or finding joy and and something else, something else. I think it also helps potentially it's a rebalancing act. Yeah. Right. I mean, a lot of us are working for companies and putting in hours, long hours, and then those long hours may be taken away from something, or that that lifestyle or that work, you know, that the work that you were doing may be able to might have been taken away from something else. It allows you to really check in and say what was the balance or what is the balance that I really want.

SPEAKER_06 51:15

Yeah, I mean it experience is still gonna win here. Yeah, and if you're able to show that it's it's just not only in the tradition traditional hiring funnels where you're looking for a job and boom, boom, boom, in a template of here are the things that we need for this job, and no, no, it's it's gonna be expressed in other ways. And if you're bringing that list of experience that we talked about during that gap period, then it's oh wow, you did all these other things. Right. This is the kind of resilience and experience that we also need in this kind of role.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Exactly. And at the end of the day, the goal is income, right? It's it's not it's income and relevance, it's not necessarily a title. Oh no. Yeah, right. Like that, that's at the end of the day, you're doing this to bring income and to have relevance and to take care of your family. The titles could be, you know, a broom pusher, it could be, you know, a truck driver, it could be VP of something, but the reality is like you're you're there to bring, you know, you know, bring income. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:24

Right. Right, right. And that's where the relevance comes and tied into that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's about real talk is as it relates to this. This is this is this real sense of real time getting back up. That's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah, and and it doesn't come with like this isn't like, you know, it's the there's no TED talk for this, right? Like, you know, the reac like you could listen to all the inspirational speeches and show all the phone calls of from people telling, man, you'll be all right, you'll get through this. Like, this is you in it real time, yeah. Dealing with this, going through the quiet moments of the day. You know, I I I deal with this now personally, where I'm used, you know, maybe there was five, six hours of phone calls and conference calls and meeting with people and one-on-ones, and now it's it's not necessarily that. It can be if I wanted it to, right? If I want to, I can pick up the phone and call David all day and harass him while he's supposed to be in meetings, or I could set up calls with people. But I I think there's an element where you know you've got to truly think and digest what's going on and take that time to reevaluate who you want to be on the other side of this. Um and and really where you should be focused right now is kind of level setting and understanding your mindset. You know, I think, you know, my wife will now, Jordan, will ask me sometimes, like, what'd you do today? Read some books, you know, listen to some music and really think about what I want to do. Yeah. Right? Like that's important time. That's important time. Yeah, and it's fine for that to be all I did today. Right. Right. I think the other part is like have some good healthy conversations. Again, like don't get the the the the cave approach and kind of you know, go into the dark cave and deal with this by yourself. Have some conversations because those will help you to find new ways to think about new things. People may come up with new ideas or have ways to pass you some olive branches to help you through this. Yeah. And then it's about action. Like you're not gonna get through this, you're not gonna get back up. We say it all the time. You can't get back back up if you just stay down. That's right. Like you gotta go through the motions, you gotta, you know, turn over, get on your knees, push yourself up on your hands, and start start that process of stepping forward.

SPEAKER_06 54:47

And and reaching up to others, too. As you said, don't be afraid to ask for help, yeah, as well. You know, that's what we have to do. That's the community that we have built in our own personal lives, and and and and just kind of navigating that way. You know, everybody has some challenges and everybody represents or understands that and about that moving forward. But it therefore that may look like getting out there, go to some of these different events that you need to and have conversations in the adjacent fields that we talked about, yeah. Or it could just be volunteer work, wherever, and then you you'll see that someone might understand the value that you might bring to this new role that you're looking at or new career that you're looking at.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Or that thing that you're passionate about. Yeah. That you might now have the time to think about how to turn it into something you can do all the time. Yeah. And get paid for it. Totally. Yeah. Um, but I mean, I it I think you know, the question you have to ask yourself is what does getting back up look like today? Like that should be your question. Yeah. Every day. What does getting back up and getting through this look like today? That's it. Like it it doesn't need to be this long exhaustive list. It could be two or three things, right? It could be one thing, uh, but you gotta do it. And again, you know, the core uh theme or the core idea here is getting back up. It isn't a speech. And it's not motivation, phone calls, because you can ignore those. It's about the daily decisions you make every day.

SPEAKER_06 56:27

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, as we were just saying, and just sometimes getting back up it isn't about inspiration, it it's about responsibility and and and the actions that take place.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Yeah, and sometimes it's about looking at your life and saying, I've done I've done hard before. Like I've I've challenged and climbed the mountain. Yeah, it's just another mountain that we tackle.

SPEAKER_06 56:55

For sure. And it it it's always as we've said a few times, it's you're in the valley looking up at the peaks. I say it all the time. Yeah. Because that that's really we would live in the valley looking up at the peak. So it's life, life is not gonna stop testing you.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

No. And um, you know, and while those tests are going on, you don't have to stop showing up. Yeah, like you you you gotta show up. If you don't show up for the test, you're gonna fail. That's the work. That's that's the work. It's it it continues, gotta do it. That's it. Yeah, and that's how you keep getting back up, you know. You gotta keep working, keep showing up, and know what you gotta do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:33

Hey, you know, you I know you so well now, and I know you will continue that process of getting back up, and and the fullness of your life always continues, and that's how you always approach it is how do I make my life full and complete, and what have I learned? And I know that about you, and and also all of you out there. I mean, I imagine you also have to think of that mindset and that action and building this community and digging into it so you can move forward. So that's why we appreciate you just coming here to getting back up, finding life after death, and just two guys, man. We're just trying to get through it. These these hits keep coming.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

Thanks for joining us on getting back up, finding life after death, the podcast. Take care. Take care. Thank you for joining us on getting back up, finding life after death. If something in today's episode spoke to you, pass it on because somebody else needs to hear it.

SPEAKER_06 58:33

For sure. We're on the social mausoleum. So follow us on Instagram and TikTok. Mostly it will be in the form of Getting Back Up Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

And be sure to subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And remember, getting back up is part of life. But getting back up is how we live. We'll see you all next time.