45: The Lasts We Never Saw Coming

Episode 45: The Lasts We Never Saw Coming

Some of the hardest moments after losing a spouse aren't the anniversaries we prepare for. They're the milestones we never realized would become "lasts."
In this episode, Jamal and David reflect on the quiet grief that can surface as children grow up and life keeps moving forward. An eighth-grade graduation. A final middle school concert. A birthday. A driver's license. A family vacation. Moments filled with pride and celebration that are suddenly accompanied by the realization that someone who should have been there is missing.

Together, they explore why grief often resurfaces during life's happiest occasions, how joy and sadness can coexist without competing, and why acknowledging your spouse's absence doesn't diminish the celebration—it deepens the love that continues to shape your family. Because every milestone is more than a reminder of what's been lost. It's also a reminder of the life and love that still live on.

Getting Back Up: Finding Life After Death is a podcast that explores the raw, unfiltered reality of surviving profound personal loss—and finding a way forward.  The idea for the podcast was born after David and Jamal met in 2023. Both widowers, who had lost their wives to cancer, quickly found a deep connection through multiple conversations about pain, perseverance, and parenthood. They realized that while men often bond over music, sports, or TV, they rarely speak candidly about loss or emotional recovery. Getting Back Up was created to change that narrative—blending the everyday with the existential in a format that’s as relatable as it is real. 

Getting knocked down is part of life. Getting back up is how we live. 

Hosts: David McClain & Jamal Jones
Executive Director: Marlon Jackson 
Editing: Marlon Jackson
Music: 
Grenada, "Treasure" 
McDonald, Otis, "Phife for Life", otismusic.com

Thank you for listening! Follow us on Instagram/TikTok @getbackuppodcast and on X @GBUpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to Getting Back Up with grief, meet, growth. Two men, two fathers, and one shared journey of rebuilding.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

We're talking about life after cancer, love, loss, and everything no one tells you. I'm David McLean.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

And I'm Jamal Jones, and welcome to Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Hey man. Something hit me the other day. I knew it was coming. I didn't know how I could digest it.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

These uh I I love your these these ones are interesting for me because I feel like some of these I've gone through, but I get to like wonder what it is for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah, I think it it's my eighth grader. Kira. Kara. Sorry, Kara. Yeah. She she graduated from eighth grade.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Ooh. Yeah. That's a big one.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And it hit me.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Because this was another last. One of the many lasts as a single father, a widowed father, yeah, that we undergo. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yeah. I remember, I remember the first last for for Miela. Because Zaya, my daughter. My 16-year-old. Yeah, your 16-year-old have they were at the same same age, same grade. And I remember both being at the re the graduation, the graduation, then looking like, oh man, this I'm feeling this. So I know Dave is feeling this.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, I remember you look, I can feel you looking over and your now wife, Jordan. Is he is he alright? Does he need to go talk to you? Yeah. Yeah, but this this the last her last middle school choral cursor, her last middle school dance.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

An era that's come and gone, and you'll never see again.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, and and the reminder or the moment that we're talking about that I know you is her mom wasn't here for this. And in that moment, her mom isn't here for this.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Exactly. The realization all at that same time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah. And and I I mean I think there's probably like a little bit of grief, a little bit of anger. Right? Like a little bit of Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

All of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

All of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so that's what we're talking about today. Something that widowers don't don't always anticipate. They know it's coming, but bracing for it.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

The lasts for for I mean, I won't say I had I mean, we know we we we celebrated birthdays, 16th birthdays earlier this year is for both of our daughters, Miela and Zaya. But for me, like the there's also it's all not just the last, it's the anticipation of a last. Right? Like that's also like one of those things. Our our daughters just move, care, you know, Kara's moving from eighth grade to high school. Zaya and Miela are moving from sophomore to juniors and starting to have conversation, upperclassmen. Classes, schedules are different, the outlook is different. Yeah, so it's the anticipation of of a last.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

In anticipation of these milestones, keep coming, yeah, keep coming, quietly reminding us that our late spouses are are no longer here.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

And and their mothers aren't here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and and then and the intention today is to help widowers recognize that grieving these moments is is completely normal, right? We've we've we share these milestones with you because we we don't do it from the standpoint of like, oh my gosh, this is strange. Like, and this it's still it's still here, it's it's still a reminder.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Still common, and because we're not just grieving a person.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah, we're grieving the absence of that person from the life, from the lives, our lives, our children's lives, that are still unfolding. Right. And I think that's an important part of like this reflection and and why you feel this is because they're missing. Yeah. Right? There's a character or person missing from from the story. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah, but back to the graduate. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Tell me, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Which I think is funny for middle school, because when we were coming up, and I'm sure a lot of you all, it was just promotion to the next really celebration.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

I don't remember having, yeah, I don't remember having a big celebration. It was maybe they go up and they call the class up and parents clap and that was it.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Yeah, yeah. And it's expected, okay, y'all have a good summer, and then high school starts next year. Yeah. So I just it's so interesting. There's so much attention on this period with so much more to come. Right. Acknowledging this is great. I'm not diminishing from the fact that this is happening and it shouldn't, but it it's just it was just so different for us. So man, yeah, it just it just hit me hard, you know, sitting up there in those bleachers and yeah in the gym, which thankfully had air conditioning.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

This guy?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, most um gyms typically.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Well, last time I remember the graduation. Oh, yeah, because it's a different school.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Well, that same middle school.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Oh, same one. Okay. But they're AC. Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

They did. That was tough a couple of years ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Um, but I mean, you know, I think as as challenging as it is, on on paper, it's a happy moment. Right? That yeah, you're supposed to be celebrating. Exactly but like, listen. Grief don't care what day it is. Grief don't grief say it again. Grief don't give a goddamn what day it is. It's coming for you. Right? That's for sure. And it's it's gonna pickest moments, and some days it's gonna be the ones you expect, and some days it's gonna be the things you don't expect.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

That's what crept up on me, man. Cause I I I could feel the tears starting to well up as they're getting close to her name and her row stands, and they walk and get their little certificate and all that. And and just the whole event itself, it was it was it was a lot. Yeah, I I wasn't bawling, but I tears were were coming to my eyes. My eyes were wet.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Well, I mean, I and then that's there's a there's a part of it where like everybody thinks of grief as this sadness, this deep, deep sadness. Yeah, but this is a moment where grief is almost like a beautiful experience because you're getting to not just, yes, there's a part where you're you're you're sad that this person isn't here, but you're also reflective of how proud they would be of them.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

How proud they would be like listen of Kara, but also of you, right? Like Nalani is proud of you in that moment, and I think there's a re realization of that, like this, it's it's also beautiful in a way, right? That that the love was so deep, that the love for her children is so deep, right, that that's why this moment is here, and that's why it feels this way.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

And also, I think getting into it a little bit more is that it's a story shared by so many, not not just me, but all of these people around her. So it and it really started for me the the last choral concert that she went to, and just how talented all those kids are. And I'm thinking about all the other parents and how they come with a certain sense of wholeness that maybe I don't have. What I mean is I'm just there and with uh my older daughter, and then also the woman who helps us and has for so long with the children, she's there because she's she's like another mother, auntie, yeah, different kinds of roles.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Village plays multiple roles, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

So we're there, and it started with that, and just feeling man, this is the last of this. We won't we won't set foot in this auditorium ever again, probably. Yeah. And it's this idea of this is final, right? This is the final, the last of my children to go through middle school, having heard the same song what, nine times or however many four and knowing what the program is and enjoying it in a different way because it is the last of what is going on. Yeah, and then her getting ready for her final middle school dance and Jamal, she wasn't wearing a potato sack, which is what I would have chosen for her to step out of the house. No, she had a dress that I she said she liked because she was out with her auntie and I had to order it, and it and it was sleeveless, and it showed cleavage and all that, and having to take her to go get it altered and all of that. And that's when it it's this is the at least the last of this for eighth grade, right? And then moving on into high school and what have you.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

And just the pre the preparation for the dance and little pictures I took, and then the woman helps us with the with with the girls. She she had video and everything because I had to take Miela to something else. Yeah. So the oldest daughter to another function while the youngest character.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Because they playing everything the same days. Yeah, they always play in the same way.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Yeah, that's probably and and just seeing that and seeing her no longer as this little child. Right. And the Lonnie's child.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Like, how did that hit you? Like going through that process, like, was there a part of you, or let me say this differently. Yeah. Are you getting used to the absence during the build-up, during the process, and then in the moment when the music's playing and this silence, is that really where you're realizing what's hitting you?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

For me, I never get used to it. Okay. Because I know it's coming. Yeah. And sometimes you're doing so much that then it hits you, and oh shoot, I'm back in this moment.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

You think of the absence, you think of the preparations to get that person there without that person you thought was going to help you with that. Right. So I don't ever get used to it. It's a fixture in how I take in whatever that moment is. And that's that's how it is. Similar with with grief. Yeah. Because it triggers, I don't like that word trigger. Yeah. The remembrance then gives you that sense of loss and grief and knowing, let's continu. Hey man, you can manage it because there's so much more that's going to be ahead for these girls. Not only joy, but also grief. Yeah. As well in different forms. Yeah. So I never get used to it, but it's this sense of it's contextual to that moment, know that it's going to be there. Right. Work through it, man. Yeah. You know, and allow whatever response to just happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think just also the idea of the drop-off for the dance and seeing other mothers and how they're preparing, getting that last shot outside with your mom before they get on the bus to go to the venue where the dance and everything's going to happen. I didn't get that. Nalani wasn't here for that. Yeah. And Kara wasn't there to see how her mother responds to how she looks. Right. And the dress and how far she's come and how more womanly she looks now versus being that little toddler that she had to change diapers for and all the other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Do you do you usually say anything? Do you say anything to them?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Oh yeah. Okay. I always it's important.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Because that is a form of healthy grieving. If you yeah, I guess you can say healthy grieving is acknowledgement.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

That this is a bittersweet moment. There's sadness and there is joy, they can coexist in this moment. So yes, yeah. Often I say this, and how proud I'm watching brow. Just how proud their mom would be. And uh I took them to dinner to celebrate the end of the year and and and said as much tears didn't come at that moment because uh I'm just feeling it now. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm really feeling it now. So yeah, man, so it's not just realizing we're grieving as a family and joy at the same time. Going back to Kara and the whole eighth grade dance and the last concert in particular, some of those friends Kara's uh friends, their parents, right, and them saying, Yeah, this is the last, isn't it? Yep. And that knowing Nalani wasn't here for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

They were saying it. Yeah. And it and it's and it's always it's always present. Like it always is going to be there. Like it's always gonna be the milestone, the last thing. That's right. Right, because it's a reminder of the finality of not just the chapter that you're going through, but also another thing that they didn't get to be part of. That's right. That they wanted to be part of, right? And I think that's the that's the the part where you are always gonna I'll say, like, listen, we're always gonna be in the brink of tears in those moments that they're not here. Even if it's not selfishly for our own grief, but for the kids' grief. Right? Like that that absence for the kids, I think for me is what usually presents itself more than anything. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So and and just to kind of you're you're exactly right. And you still feel this at nine years on out.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah, nine years.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

I mean, yeah, I mean that that Janice had passed away. Yeah. Even nine years out, you feel it.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Yeah, I mean, I I I thought about it, and not to cut to cut you off, no, but I'm gonna but like I think about it, like I, you know, I won't say thank God I didn't have a milestone this year, because I did, right? You know, she turns Zaya turns 16, Jackie's, you know, after her gap year, she's applying it to colleges and like that whole process and and and the joy and excitement we have in our family about that, but also knowing that these are things that Janice didn't get to be part of. Zaya getting through sophomore year as well as she did for us, you know, and I say well, I'm not just talking about grades, I mean like socially, like she joined the chair team. And those are times, like seeing her do that, even for me at the end of the season, seeing how much she had grown as a as a young lady, and I felt an immense amount of pride. I know Jordan felt an immense amount of pride, my my wife, my now wife, but also we both were like, and I think Jordan actually told her, like your mom would be so proud of you, right? Not just in her, but like even in those moments, like you're like, man, like these are milestones. This is the last. This is the last first time, right? Like, I never thought Zaya would be like, hey, I want to be a chair in the on the chair team. Like, not because I doubted her, but I feel like that's just wasn't her vibe. Like, for so long, I thought that wasn't her vibe, and then all of a sudden she's like, I want to join the chair team. And I'm like, wait, what? But there was a part of me that saw her and doing it, we were going to the games, which was cool, but also seeing her grow. And I'm like, man, like Janice didn't get to see that. Right. Um, and I think when you go through those moments, it is these, you know, and then now, as I mentioned, like now she's going into her junior year. And I'm thinking back, you're you're you're reminding me of that. That was one of the first big milestones that we had after we moved here was Zaya, Jackie graduating from high school. It was the first one, right? Like Jackie going graduated from high school, and we're we're outside the stadium, and they do it at the uh over here at the big stadium by the zoo. And I remember watching Jackie and taking pictures with her, and you know, her grandmother was there, both grandmothers. So Janice's mother was there, my mom was there. Um, you know, all like my all of our family, like our family was there, and and Jackie didn't want us to make a big deal of it. And trying to like kept it low-key and like barely like didn't even wear a dress or anything, wore just like shorts or something under. But it was just like man, like one, Janice wouldn't have stood for that. She would have made you wear a goddamn dress, or like your mother would have made you. I didn't say that, but I'm thinking like, oh Janice wouldn't have had this. But but also respecting this is what Jackie wants to do, but then also just like in these pictures, she's missing, and this build-up she's missing. We did a celebration afterwards, and then like she's missing. And I remember thinking about that and talking about that in when I did my, you know, because we had something at the in the backyard, and when I did my speech, it was like the last for Jackie. It was like for her, also realizing she's the oldest, and knew Janice so much, knew her well. Like Zaya was younger when Janice passed and got sick, but Jackie had seen so much and experienced so much of her, and it was a part of me where, like, man, like she's missing this key part of who she is, and Janice is missing this cool part, this huge part of who she is, right? At the same time. Um, I think that was for me like just two parallels of like where you can anticipate. I'm anticipating a last. I'm anticipating a high school graduation that and it's it's like on your own eggshells as you build it, and you make sure you do it in the right way, and you're carrying so much of it. That's why I was asking how you were feeling during the buildup, yeah, right, during the process, because I'm in a two-year process now of of bracing for high school graduation. I will be in tears for myself, I will be in tears for Janice, right? I will be in tears for Janice's mother who passed away, my late mother-in-law. Like, I will be in tears for so many people who are part of this little girl's life, but also thinking back to when we did it for Jackie, and then when we did middle school, like for middle school graduation for Zaya, like you don't ever not miss them being there for those moments. Yeah. I think that's the part where we talk about like this is an element of grief that will linger and will creep up in different ways. And just when you think you figured it out, right.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

And also it's their experience through these lasts, it is different than what you anticipated because of absence.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yes, who they are is different, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, exactly. Who they are at this moment of last for them is because of the absence of the person who is supposed to be there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

And that is a sense of pride at the same time, it is, and it's also a sense of I won't say guilt, but it's a sense of responsibility to remind them, and I think to your point of like letting them know how proud you are and how proud well not Nalani would be, and same for me. Yeah, in that moment, there's a part of you who's like because because they have grown up so much different than we grew up without this experience. Then there's other children who thankfully they're blessed to not have to do go through this at this age. Our children have grown up in a place where there's sometimes that I look at my kids, and I'm sure you do the same, and I look at them, and they're almost stoic in certain experiences. Like they are just I can deal with this. Yeah. Because they are so much. They're so strong because of this absence. And I think there's a part where like you kind of almost don't want to let them. I know for me, sometimes I'm like, don't forget your mom. Like, I'm not saying it, but it's like this this nudge to like make sure you remember that she's still here with you. She's still part of who you're becoming, even though she's absent. Right. I think that that's something that's there for me.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

All right. So what this really is, it's continuing grief we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah, I mean, again, we we tend to think of grief and we attach it to things like anniversaries.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

But but but sometimes it's attached to progress.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah. I mean, like life keeps moving, and that's the part where this is it feels strange a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

And every and and and as this happens, and just every time life moves forward, there's there's another opportunity to to really miss them.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah, and and like it's l it's it's okay to acknowledge that even if you've moved forward into like in my case, it's moved forward into a different relationship. I still have to let my children know. Yeah. And like everybody still needs to know and knows that like they miss their mom and she would have been a part of this.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah. Yeah. And you miss their mom for them as well, whether the relationship was fantastic or challenging, whatever that the case may be.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

And it and this is gonna mostly show up in the milestones.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, and and during these milestones, you you just didn't expect you would hit w without them.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Yeah. So like what are what do we I mean, we've talked about the graduations, we've talked about sporting events and concerts. Yeah. Uh we're working on one right now.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

The the driver's license bar? Yeah. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

That's would Nalani would have would she want to be driving in the car or would she?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

I think because the there's a funny history in Nalani's family. Okay. So Nalani's dad has a bunch of cars. Okay. All right. All over. He just he loves collector. Okay. He'll have 15 El Caminos. Oh, whatever. And it's not Do they work? That's a good question. Because he hasn't visited visited all of them. I don't think he knows what some of them are. That's a so wait, and he lives, where did he live again?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

I'm not gonna say. Well, I mean in the southwest. Okay, so southwest. I'm I'm I'm sorry, I'm just I'm being stereotypical stereotypical. Yeah, yeah. I'm imagining driving down a country road and you see the long driveway with like seven cars lined up, some with hoods, some with covers. With a tarp, with a tarp, a blue. And then there's one car on the right side of the driveway, all the way up, and that's the one that works. Clean, clean, clean.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Okay, no, it's not like that. So he has a spread out people's driveway. And he's got a couple of different cars. So he's a car person, and that and Nalani kind of got that gene as well, not the multiple cars, but the love of cars. Okay, cool. All right, so it's funny. So I can't remember the model, but I think it was like a Dotson 280Z or something like that. Oh, yeah, that the father bought for himself. Oh, nice. And Nalani was coming of driving age, and so Nalani's mom was like, oh, she wasn't paused.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

I want to pause. For those who don't know, a Dotson.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I'm sorry, is the old brand name for Nissan.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah. But that dotson is classic. Classic. And and worth it.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

That was the bug. That's the coupe. That's the two door. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. With the louvers on the back and all that.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Remember that?

SPEAKER_02 25:52

I think that's my turn. Dotson, the Nissan, the Dotson replaced the Nissan 300Z. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

That's exactly old beautiful cars. So he bought this for himself. Okay. Alani's mom didn't like that. Oh, you so you bought that for her then? So she's But they had no other. So she got a Dotson? Ooh. But listen, she was 14, bro.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

So she was driving illegally to school. Because they got busy in Paris and they had to be here and there. Yeah. So her first car wasn't a Chevette. Nice. Or, you know, a Chevette T 1000 or a Ford Fiesta with three hubcaps on it and it's yelling. She had a Dotson. She had a 280Z and they said to her, just drive it to school. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

What?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

So she was a car. So she was a car. Yeah, she was in that thing. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

So, so, so she'd have had talk about first driver's licenses and first cars.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

That's what she had me yell at doing donuts in the in the in the street, probably right now.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Well, they she they would be driving fast and develop road rage early.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Okay. So it's funny. Uh Janice would not, I think, no, she would not. I actually think I taught Tahir to drive. Me and we, me and his his dad and his uncle. Um Tahir being oldest. Yeah, my oldest, my stepson. And um she didn't want any part of it. She was like, I don't have the patience for it. And she was like, I'm not dying because of some little kid who doesn't know how to drive. That would have been her vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and she'd be like, I'm not messing up my coop. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

They don't deserve it yet. Because then what's to look forward to? Yeah. If you got it all up front, yeah. Like that. So yeah, so now I think concerts and such do yeah. Because the girls are talking about one very, very popular artist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

So college visits and the acceptance letters process for sure. I know she was like very involved with that with Tahir. Yeah. I know she was excited for it for Jackie because you know, from a young age, Jackie showed a lot of aptitude, and we we we believed and still, you know, we we believed in her from a young age. And Zaya also, you know, now like she's stellar. And yeah, as as we go through this process, yeah, going into the upper class. The upperclassmen, yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

They love that time. Yeah, be sure you I gotta use that.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah, to spread it.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

They love I have an upperclassman. They love that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, and and and now as I'm thinking about that, it's gonna, you know, we're gonna start booking these trips. I know Jordan, she's Jordan's excited about it, and I know she's gonna be wondering why, like, why are you down? Why are you acting like this? And I'm like, feel some kind of way. There's money missing.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

The masterpiece, the the holidays start to look different as well. Yeah, that it's that last Thanksgiving and not understanding why that child doesn't like mashed potatoes, and that whole discussion, that might be the last of it for a while, because their lives are going to go all these different paths, and they may not come back for those holidays. Again, it's the absence of the people of holidays, and it could be those like your children who happen to spend it elsewhere. That's gonna start to look different again. Yeah, exactly. Alas, the last again, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

And then, yeah, I mean, there's so many different, so many different places it's gonna present itself, you know, and and I think that we could we could run down a long list, but I think, you know, again, it I think the part that I think about often is how much of it is like the anticipation of these moments, as much as it's the passing of these moments.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Um, you know, you feel I know me personally, I feel stress sometimes approaching these moments. I feel stress approaching the birthday, I feel stress approaching a graduation, approaching the college application process or whatever thing is coming next. Um there's there's the reminder. There's the a little bit of anxiety around am I doing this the right way? Am I representing this person that's missing in here? Yeah. Um, you know, so much like pressure that you feel. Yeah. Um going through it.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

So I I think what surprised me the grief wasn't in the moment of the last wasn't fully overwhelming. Subtle, right? Yeah, I had some practice, I think, going into it. So yeah, yeah. So it it's a quiet sadness. It kind of sits next to a sense of joy that we had already talked about. Yeah. Because they're prepared for that moment, absent who should be there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Because we talk about we we talk about how the joy and the grief could coexist. Yeah. Right. And it creates kind of this conflicting, you know, almost this conflicting emotion. Um, and I think that's that's the reality. I think I think that's the surprise. This that was the surprise for me. My first experiences with the last was and the milestones, is that they create these new layers, these new types of grief. Not this deep, deep sadness in some cases. Uh, but sometimes just it's weird to say, like, I think when people think about grief, they always think about, oh, I miss this person. And it's like you have this grief is always thought of as this constant missing. I don't know if it's always a constant missing. No, right. And think sometimes I think the milestones create a situational missing, right? If if that makes sense. Yeah. Right. Like I miss this person more in this situation. Right. Every day has seemed fine, but this situation in particular is where this grief lies. That reminder. That it's the reminder. Yeah. Right. And I think that's that's that was a surprise for me because I thought it was going to be more of like either I I think my process, or you know, over these years, obviously it's faded over time, or the con the type of grief has has changed. But I think it as I got through that first wave of deep grief, then came the situational grief, which was like, oh yeah, I didn't see that coming. I thought I was okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah. New layer. New layer. Right. So kind of work through and then it and and it could be these small moments that that new layer ushers in. Yeah. And and sometimes it's gonna hit harder than some of these big anniversaries that that we celebrate.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Yeah. Yeah. It's true, like a big anniversary. Like I remember thinking, like, even before I got remarried, like I remember like the wedding anniversary just became a day. Right? It didn't become a day that I was like deep in sadness. It just was like, oh wow, shoot, today's tomorrow's our anniversary.

unknown 33:19

Wow, man.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

But then you would have like something else come, and it's like the kids are going on, you know, going away for a weekend trip with a friend, and you're like, wait a minute. Like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna name home? Right, yeah. Would she want me to it's too quiet? Yeah, exactly. Yes, and now your mind is so yes, it's the yeah, I remember the first time I sent them to camp, like sleeperweight.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Oh yeah, uh, oh, come on, man. That's that already hurt me again. Like, what you doing?

SPEAKER_02 33:55

I was just like, one, I don't think Janice would have had it. I think she'd be like, oh hell no, my kids ain't gonna sleep away camp. She didn't do it. Because she didn't do it. The family didn't. She made their family.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Sit up to a relative or something like that at the most.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

I mean, you know, they grew up in Jersey in the city, so I mean, you know, the kids did day camps, right? Or maybe, or maybe they went to a family member for like, you know, a month out of summer. Okay, okay. Different part of different part of the New Jersey, right? Or different part. That's right. I mean, I had it. There's times I went to yours, I went to Brooklyn Cousins Camp. My cousins lived in Brooklyn, that was Brooklyn Cousins Camp, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

So, but yeah. Well, you you know, another I'll just throw this in as we kind of go across as surprising me of the last is my oldest has a job now. Oh she worked in the summer, yeah. And so that hanging out and not doing that's those days are over.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Yeah. What the the crazy part too, yes, like Zaya has been looking for a job and you know, to no luck, you know, with just two different experiences. But the other part of it is like, yes, you have these these times where people were like that's a first, the first job, right? And what is the first job? And you know, would mom be happy with this first job? Wouldn't Lonnie, would that be cool, or would she have been able to help like like what would have been her advice in preparing for it? And like that's another yeah, it's another milestone.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

That's another milestone, right? Yeah, right. But yeah. And yeah, I think also what surprised me is just still the other people showing their grief alongside of you. And it's different for people with their last. Yeah. And that's another full episode of that we're going to have about those people grieving alongside of you. Yes. Those those lasts.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

How they how they how other people and other family members and other loved ones who are part of your community navigate your lasts and your children's lasts alongside you. And how in some cases you gotta let that be theirs and not yours. That's right. Right. And and and I think I think it's it's we carry enough, right? You carry enough. But yeah, we'll talk about that one. That's a good one. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, and then, you know, again, we talked like it a lot, it evolves, it doesn't disappear. You know, I've talked the sense of grief. The sense of grief. I've talked about kind of the long tail. Yeah, right. It's really heavy up front and gradually changes phases and it still exists and it doesn't go away. Yeah. It's just pops up in its own way and it evolves into hopefully something less painful, hopefully something that allows you to do more reflecting, and but also hopefully something that allows you to do more.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

I I think you would agree to this other that really surprise one and us and you you all that we're we're speaking to, is that this pride can coexist, that your children have sadness and pride. Oh, yeah, as as a complement to each other. Yeah, that's still I'm marveled.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

That that I'm marveled by their ability to do that. I just I as an adult, maybe just because we have all this life experience, we feel things more. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe that's the gift of childhood as well.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

You know, I think it's the I think it's I don't know. I think it's the the I hate to call it a gift, but I think it's the the experience of navigating deep loss uh in youth. It comes with complexity and and and and and and challenges, but I think it also comes with maturing that lightly, lightly wouldn't have happened without it. Yeah. Right? You know, we we say our kids are forced to forced to, they're forced to grow faster. Um, and I think because of that we we see it and feel it differently than they do. Yeah. Um I know where I struggled though was being able to fully enjoy the moment.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Because what? Because you were always looking for what was missing?

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, but and I'm always worried about everybody else. Like to back to the point. There's a point here you mentioned before, how is all the other family and experience in this? And usually in milestones, we're surrounded by family and friends who've also lost our late wives, right? And some have lost a friend, they've lost a sister, they've lost them. So I think for me it was like, you know, it's always been like, I'm observing, I'm looking at my daughters, and I'm like, Are you okay? Are they okay? Okay, are they okay? How do they look? They look, they're smiling. Okay, they're okay. It looks like they're okay. Yeah. Okay, wait, how's her mom? Oh my gosh, her mom looks fuck sad. Is she okay? No, she's laughing, right? Like you're you're kind of scanning, and then your own thought around, oh, she should be here. Or I can't believe, like, I can't believe she's gone. Right, like you, I there's times that I've rewind nine years and I'm like, I can't believe she's gone.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah. And it's not like uh that statement alone is like just the statement.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

It's not it's not deep sadness in that moment, it's like shock. Yeah, it's still shock in that moment, like, oh, graduation's here or birthday or whatever. And I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe she's gone. Right? That that takes you out of the joy of the moment sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah, I think and where you can struggle with that, and we talk about this a lot, so it bears repeating, is that just staying present during happy moments, yeah, because it's tinged with sadness, and it always will be because cast of characters is we talk about, they're not all there. Yeah, and not only your spouse that has passed away, but grandparents, how the how they would beam with joy, right seeing this development, seeing the last along you, and how they might have thought about for their generation the last that they saw of we as their grandchildren, right, or their daughter, yeah. It that they're you know, Janice's mom, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

So no, I yeah, I agree. And I think we we we talked about it. There's this mixed dichotomy of joy and sadness, grief and hope. Yep. Right? Being able to be excited for the future in this experience, but also the balance of like, oh man, like the sadness that this person is missing. There's like there's so many complex emotions that you've got to manage, and I think that's it's it's trying to navigate those are always a was a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Now let me throw this at you, and you all may feel this way. I don't know if I felt guilty for celebrating because it wasn't about me. The last are very much more about my children.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

It's not celebrating, oh, and I got them to this point. Right. Right, right. No, that's I'm supposed to.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

There's no trophy for you.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

No. So it's like, what? Do you feel the same way?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

No, I agree completely. I don't think it's necessarily uh you cannot feel guilty. At the end of the day, in these moments, it's about celebrating the accomplishments. Yes. An accomplishment be could be you've gotten your kid, your child to this moment. They've gotten themselves to this moment.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

They did the work, they did the work. You kept giving them this the message, giving them the encouragement. Right. Right. Like that to me, I think is what we're celebrating. Yes. Right. It's their accomplishment. Absolutely. That's that's the important front of it. Yeah. Um, you know, we talked about like, you know, we always talk about like the experience of like, you know, going to the store or going to the restaurant, and we're sitting there, and our family's just us, and somebody else's family is all of them, and like there's always that pressure of comparing. Yeah. Right? Like, what does our success look like versus what does our celebration look like versus somebody else's?

SPEAKER_01 42:27

So it's like always what what do they see when they it's just the three of us? What must they think? It must be his weekend. That's always gonna be weird. Okay. It must be his weekend.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

I don't know, man. No, but I like just be. And ooh, I want to let them order that.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Just that's a family. That is probably not a widower's feeling. That's probably a every dad's feeling. Like, why are they looking at me like it's my weekend, right?

unknown 42:57

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

But it's amplified when when you're a widower.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

So you know where where I struggle to, or where one can struggle, is carrying the emotional weight for the children, because it's it doesn't always come to the surface for a lot of our children. Yes, sometimes we just get this for everything. Good mics there. You know, and yeah, and how was your day?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Okay. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Wait, you know, so we get yes, no short answers, maybe not much of an answer. It could be what a shrug or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

The funny part is if I give Zaya that response, for example, she comes home and she'll how's your day? It was all right. Just all right. I'm like, you said the same thing yesterday. Like that was acceptable. That was acceptable. My answer not acceptable. My day was just all right. Your day should just not be just all right. And I'm like, what? So yeah, it's hard, but it's hard to navigate that because you're looking for you're looking for something to tell you they're okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah, signs that they are fine. Yeah. That. The ups and downs, but hey, I'm I'm I can work through it.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

We've we have lived long enough in grief survival that you should know dad.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

And maybe we should think about this in the context of they are okay. And we've done a pretty good job helping them navigate through this. Yeah. It's hard for us to say that. It's hard for us to know that sometimes without them telling that. I usually guilt my daughter all the time. I usually tell them, listen, don't come back to me when you're 25, 30 years old talking about you finally went back to counseling, and now you're revealing them all of these things that I didn't do right. I was like, I don't want to hear that. You tell me now. Right. So exactly. Don't do that. Don't don't do that to your children. But you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Do you have one? Because I had another one.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yeah, no, I think um, you know, accepting that like these things are gonna continue to happen.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Like there's gonna be more and more milestones, gonna be more and more things to celebrate. And I don't want to just say, like, you know, without any any care or recklessly say just get used to it. It's not that, but like do get used to it. Do get used to and know that with each milestone there's gonna be a new and different emotion. Yeah. And it's okay to navigate through it. It's okay to pause and be distracted and worry and feel all these things. The main thing is you're not strange, it's normal.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest one which we can do a whole conversation about is explaining to other people what you're feeling. Especially to those people who haven't gone through loss. Yeah. And especially real time, all of the fallout that happens from the absence and how you're trying to move forward, they can say and do, and their lives continue, and at some point they want yours to stay the same somehow and not allow you to move forward. Yeah. Because they aren't ready to move forward. Again, a full episode. Then another full conversation that we can have.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

But I think that's what that's that's really important because what that leads into is the thing that will make it worse, which is trying to pretend that this is only a happy day. Right. That's a big one. Because that one to me, I think the the the when you are not open and don't have the conversations, and sometimes people won't ask you. Right. Because when there's children, especially when there's children in a place, everybody's laser focused on the children. Yeah. Right. And I think the further you move about, move through it, people are less focused on how you're doing. They're more focused again, it's the kids, it's the babies. Right. Right. The babies. I gotta worry about these babies. Right. But but the reality is, yeah, like it's it's not just a happy day. It is a day of reflection for some of us. Yeah, it is a day for missing for some of us, and it's still a grief, you know, it's still a a grief element, yes, for some of us, right? In different ways, and I think that's something that is really important, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Yeah, and what makes it worse is suppressing the sadness during celebrations. Yeah. We have talked about this uh so often about especially as men, don't stuff it down. Yeah. Because it's just gonna eat you away like the cancer that affected both of our wives and killed them. Yep. And and just anything that is difficult and you keep you try to put a lid on it, it's gonna blow. Yeah. It's going to eat the insides that it in which it resides. We're very fragile skin, bone, water, and all the other cartilage and everything else that makes up our bodies. Yeah, we just can't tell.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

I think one thing that will also make it worse is also like again, we talked about like looking at other families, other families, comparing your family to someone else's family and where they are, comparing how your children are being in this moment to how other children may be, like, those are really things that you don't want to do. Those they will make it worse. Yeah, because again, I I get and we get that you're looking for a response. We get that you're looking for a model, but the model is different. The model is different for every family, and the model is different for every person. And let's just go back, like we all know when people are on social media and sometimes people are at events. You have no I always say you see a couple at a wedding and they seem happy and they hold hands and all this stuff, or you see a couple on a date, like you have no idea what life is like at home, or you see a family, you have no idea what things they're dealing with internally. So you can't take something on the surface. Yes, and assume that it's what it is. Like you have to always assume that there's other layers to that. So know that your layers are layers that you deal with, and just as a result, you shouldn't compare yourself to anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah, and not feel guilty in those situations where you're grieving during happy events, yeah. Because that is also a an evolved sense of how you are dealing with grief, that you're able to express it in a way that is that shows the most vulnerable, but then you bring it back together and you're still moving forward clearly.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Because you're at that event, you're at it you're in that celebration.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

And so it can mark sadness because of someone who is not there, and then it's also joyful tears because that person is moving forward, and so are you.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's it's that that that to me touches right on the net the next one that we have, which was you know, putting pressure on yourself to be strong. Right. Again, you're already, you have been.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

You've been strong, right? Like the the pressure to add more strong to yourself. Like, you don't need to be any more strong than you've been through this point. Like, just take it in the moment, be in the moment, experience the joy, experience the missing and the sadness of if they present themselves, experience whatever pops up, let it flow in, let it flow out, and then again, just get back to reflecting and being present in the moment. I think that's something, admittedly, I know I've missed the opportunity to, I've missed the moment because I was off daydreaming or worried about something that I didn't need to worry about. But I think that's you know, the the pressure to be strong is always there. We don't need to give it to ourselves anymore.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

For sure, for sure. And then as far as it relates to making the last feel worse, not acknowledging the absence out loud. Not acknowledging that, because it's again, it's gonna be tied to happy memory that related to that celebration, related to the time, yeah, as ephemeral as it was with that person, how short it was with that person, you still had that moment. Good, bad, challenging, whatever the case may be. Yeah, but not acknowledging her absence can make it worse.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah, yep. Yeah, and then you know, trying to protect everybody else's emotions, like there's there's no like we all have emotions. You you gotta let everybody feel it. You can't protect everybody's emotions, you can't protect the kids, especially, like they're gonna feel what they're gonna feel. That's right. But they should, and they should, right? Like, that's the like there's no secret that this person's gone. Right. They we can all feel, everybody should feel, you know, within reason. Obviously, you know, somebody's hooping and hollering and then fall falling out during event. You might have to get them, take them out into the hallway, yeah, exactly. You know, I think you you you don't want to pr stop that process, but you can't babysit it.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. It just believing you have to choose between joy and sadness. No, no, as we keep saying, they can coexist, they can coexist. Exactly, and should. Yep. That's life, baby.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Yeah, that's life. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then I mean things that help, right? These are things that you know, sometimes you don't want to force it. I always say let it flow naturally how you want, you know, to represent this past wife, past husband, this person. Is there a way, is there a reason to honor them here? Is it a natural way? You know, I think it's you know, saying their name, again, we you know, rest recognize that they are missing from this event. That's right. Right. I think acknowledging the importance that they played in this, you know, whether it's your child's life or the family, right? I think it those are all fine things to do within the right context, within the right reason. Again, I'll if it's like out of nowhere and you know it's everybody looking at you like you're crazy and that was strange, then you might might not have been good timing.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

But try to get it around the milestones. Get it around the milestones, yeah. If you can. That that that makes a little bit more sense. And that's but but it's so often share those stories because I think we end up laughing more than we do crying in those things. It's just they're just funny memories.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

So yeah, I I also think there's an element of making making light of the loss and poking fun, a little fun at the person who who who is no longer here. Yeah, yeah. Right. How big and flamboyant would the 16 birthday year old six-day sixteen-year-old birthday party be if they were here instead of you?

SPEAKER_01 54:16

And would it have been one day if Janice were planning it? Right. Or would it have been multiple in multiple cities or something like that?

SPEAKER_02 54:23

Yeah, exactly. Like, and and and I think those are real things that you can laugh at. And the aunties and the uncles and the friends, they will be sitting there cracking up laughing, that's right, co-signing, and your children would be like, oh wow, like that's how mom was. That's how mom would have done this too. And they would get a lot of laugh out of it. That's right. And and I think you did something, you know, and and you you've done things before where you've allowed your your daughters to give shout outs and thank yous to the family members, but equally allowing them to tell a story of though in that moment. I think that that should be there. And even if it's there's not a microphone, them doing that's right, and sitting with the children and sitting with you and bringing the story up the table. And like I think those are really healthy things to do.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

And I think also what helped is just giving yourself permission to feel everything in its time. Yeah. And so I think for me to feel that and express it, I know you can say the same over the course of time that that uh you have moved forward in your life. You you you could probably say the same thing. Just feel it all. Yeah. Feel it all.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Yep. And at the end of the day, the celebrations, they don't diminish the grief. Yeah. Right. They don't, they don't, there's not a punctuation mark, there's not an end to it. They don't erase the per the fact that this person wasn't there doesn't erase who they were. Yeah. And the importance that they played in in your life. But I think it does allow you to obviously bring it into context that there are going to be celebrations and milestones that you have to continue to have. That's right. That you have to continue to bring and and and show and share with your family and your children in particular to let them know that there is still joy and that we can still celebrate, even though we're sad.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

That's so important.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

So important. Yeah. So if you're listening and and you're experiencing these moments, you're not ruining.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

Don't like don't think about it like you're ruining a happy day.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Yeah, you're honoring somebody you sense should have been a part of it. That that's that's the sense and feeling that you you should have in those in those situations.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Yeah, and the feelings, those are feelings that that they should be there, right? Just like you might be feeling, man, this person should be be there. Guess what? Those feelings that you're having, they should be there as well. So you know, I mean, listen, what if what if all these moments were uh weren't weren't reminders of what we're missing?

SPEAKER_01 57:04

I mean the what if the reminders it it really shows what if they're to show how deeply that person still still matters.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

I think that's in a you know, it's a it's it's not a it's it might be fill it might feel strange, but it's honestly not like a a a completely it's honestly just a completely different way to think about it. Like it's it's it's supposed to be there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Say say her name or say his name.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Mm-hmm. Talk about her.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Now both of these two exist. The the sadness, the the the joy you because certainly your your children are watching and and I think they have proven themselves worthy of doing exactly that, the coexistence.

SPEAKER_02 57:52

Yeah, and don't feel guilty if you're grieving and celebrating at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Yeah, don't don't don't rush through all this.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

There's no re need to do that. It's a process, right. And and anybody who cares about you and loves you and loves you and your family, they will understand.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Yeah, and understand life is going to continue. You're gonna continue giving and you're to your children and these lasts and giving the proper weight to the last that will arrive.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Yeah, don't don't feel like you're backtracking in this process and your grieving process. You're not, you're actually headed in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

And and it's great to actually know that this sense of love is still showing up in your in your life. That's important to know you have that capability still.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Yeah, and I think one of the things that I'll say last is like grief is not interrupting the celebration, it's just a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Yeah. It's just reminding you who should have been there. Yeah, that's the most important. Yeah, and keeping those stories alive will certainly do that in those different memories. Yep. So we thank you again for joining us on Getting Back Up, Finding Life After Death Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

We appreciate your time. We thank you for joining us, and we do seriously hope that the next celebrations and milestones in your life are filled with joy, love, reflection.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Yeah. Embrace the last. Think of the memory that you can keep and how it enriches your life, those lasts, because they'll they'll keep coming just like the first.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yep. Yep. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you for joining us on Getting Back Up. Finding life after death. If something in today's episode spoke to you, pass it on because somebody out there needs to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

For sure. Word of the social mausoleum. So follow us on Instagram and TikTok. Mostly it will be in the form of Getting Back Up Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

And be sure to subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And remember, getting back down is part of life.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

But getting back up is how we live. We'll see you all next time.